Author Topic: So Fitz is...  (Read 1474 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2022, 07:24:01 PM »
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Chauncy doesn’t lie, like a very good lawyer he tells partial truths, qualifies his replies and dangles ‘replies’ designed to elicit further questions from his victim, rather than answer their question.

Or more like Chauncy works like a slot machine, if you've ever played them you know that while yeah, on occasion you win a jackpot, usually if you put a quarter in, it might give you a few back, daring you to put more money in because there is more where that came from, right? Wrong, what usually happens is you continue to put the quarters in hoping for that jackpot that never comes.. Then you find you are out of money and luck. 
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Harry finally realised this.

Yeah, he walked away with a few more quarters than he began with, but quit playing because he knew that Chauncy would end up the winner, not him.  And on the whole? No jackpot.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 03:20:20 AM by Mira »

Offline Ed0517

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2022, 08:57:22 AM »

I really wouldn’t be surprised to find Chauncy working with Nameless/Cowl. How else did the summoning rite for Chauncy get out into the mortal world?

The summoning rites have been out there. Sells used one. Harry did. They could have gotten the rite from where Harry did. We have no reason to think Harry unique here. 

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2022, 11:09:16 AM »
The summoning rites have been out there. Sells used one. Harry did. They could have gotten the rite from where Harry did. We have no reason to think Harry unique here.

  Yeah, I agree the information is out there if one wants it.   Harry thought he was protected physically from Chauncy by the circle. I'd say Harry's circle was better than the one Sells had, if he had one at all.  Not all circles are the same, and some are forbidden because of what they are designed to contain.  That's why Harry refused to give Kim anymore information once he realized what kind of circle she wanted.  He didn't buy what she had told him, that it was purely informational, since both could lose their heads for making one. He also tried to warn her to no avail that she was in over her head both in skill and experience.  He thought he was doing the right thing by her, but he didn't know about Finn. Kim didn't tell him because she thought she could handle it, I doubt that she understood what Finn was, or how dangerous a Loop is.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2022, 12:34:58 AM »
Well someone is out there, handing out summoning rituals, magic books and wolf- skin belts probably just for the hell of it to sow discord. Almost as if they were a Demi- God of discord resident in Chicago. This may be Nameless/Cowls weakness, he can’t help sowing discord even if it isn’t part of a larger scheme, like undermining the Winter Court with the Nemesis Athame, or seeking out The Word to remove the qualifier from god, or setting the White Court and White Council at each other’s throats. How many of the events in Chicago that have impinged upon Harry are due to Nameless indirectly?

I have suggested he pushed Maeve in Summer Knight towards her course of action, did he hook Marcone up with the Church Mice and then alert the Denarians just for fun? Was he behind the dogknapping of the puppies? The Circle/Black seem to have been behind it in Zoo Day. Before Changes Nameless/Cowl may have been responsible to some degree for most of Harry’s Files, some by design, some just for gun.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2022, 09:16:01 AM »
I don't think the circles are BANNED as such, Harry just won't TEACH Kim because the ones she wanted are designed for things she should not go near. It's like teaching your kid to drive the first time - you do not give your son the keys to a 500 hp Corvette. It's not ILLEGAL to do so, but it is not SMART. Mom's Volvo station wagon is a better choice.  It's like making nitroglycerine and mixing it with DE to make dynamite paste. The end product is pretty stable, but you better know what you are doing along the way, nitro is VERY touchy stuff.  In this case, it's not the circle that is an issue - it's what's inside. 

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2022, 12:04:47 PM »
I don't think the circles are BANNED as such, Harry just won't TEACH Kim because the ones she wanted are designed for things she should not go near. It's like teaching your kid to drive the first time - you do not give your son the keys to a 500 hp Corvette. It's not ILLEGAL to do so, but it is not SMART. Mom's Volvo station wagon is a better choice.  It's like making nitroglycerine and mixing it with DE to make dynamite paste. The end product is pretty stable, but you better know what you are doing along the way, nitro is VERY touchy stuff.  In this case, it's not the circle that is an issue - it's what's inside.

I have to go back and reread, but the circle she wanted to build, and the type of monsters and demons it was designed to contain, it was illegal or drew some interesting assumptions from the Wardens.  In other words if you needed to build that kind of circle to call up whatever or contain whatever, you were up to no good.. Remember his buddy Morgan?  At that point in time Harry didn't know he was really looking out for his welfare.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2022, 02:56:35 PM »
The books tell you how summoning got out to the general public. A plan by the White Council to weaken the process by having everyone trying to do it.(Maybe White Knight or possibly earlier, I forget) 

Harry would have learned his lessons from Bob about demons and summoning. Also Bock's Books.

In the end all roads lead to Nemesis in turns of bad things happening. He manipulates groups to achieve chaos.

MacFinn's circle could have been no older then Chicago unless it was in some way portable. That could mean the wizard who built it is still around and possibly corrupted by  Nemesis. You can infer this because MacFinn wouldn't have wanted to share knowledge of what he was. Since he wasn't immortal it had to be done by a modern Wizard.

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2022, 03:17:42 PM »
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MacFinn's circle could have been no older then Chicago unless it was in some way portable. That could mean the wizard who built it is still around and possibly corrupted by  Nemesis. You can infer this because MacFinn wouldn't have wanted to share knowledge of what he was. Since he wasn't immortal it had to be done by a modern Wizard.

What I'd like to know is how Kim managed to sell him on the idea that she was even remotely qualified to help him?  Good point, the circle isn't portable, and since it wasn't in a hundred year old building, who set it up to begin with and why?  And how did Finn learn about it?

Offline vincentric

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2022, 03:51:47 PM »
Well someone is out there, handing out summoning rituals, magic books and wolf- skin belts probably just for the hell of it to sow discord. Almost as if they were a Demi- God of discord resident in Chicago. This may be Nameless/Cowls weakness, he can’t help sowing discord even if it isn’t part of a larger scheme, like undermining the Winter Court with the Nemesis Athame, or seeking out The Word to remove the qualifier from god, or setting the White Court and White Council at each other’s throats. How many of the events in Chicago that have impinged upon Harry are due to Nameless indirectly?

I have suggested he pushed Maeve in Summer Knight towards her course of action, did he hook Marcone up with the Church Mice and then alert the Denarians just for fun? Was he behind the dogknapping of the puppies? The Circle/Black seem to have been behind it in Zoo Day. Before Changes Nameless/Cowl may have been responsible to some degree for most of Harry’s Files, some by design, some just for gun.

Nameless is an interesting character but since he didn't appear in the books prior to The Law, by WOJ he can't be Cowl. As for the major things in your first paragraph, Nemesis/Justine pretty much claims credit for these when she thinks she has Harry beaten on the boat. If Nameless had a hand in pushing Maeve, Mab would have had a "serious discussion" with him and he'd likely still be in an exit interview like Slate's. I do agree that he could have hooked Marcone up with the Church Mice but telling Nic would be against the interests of his client, so not that part. Anybody could have been behind the puppies so he's as good a guess there as any. 

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2022, 06:17:28 PM »
Ah! But he did but remained nameless.

I think we first see him as an unnamed dancer in Maeves Court, and Maeve refers to someone telling her about him but cuts herself off.

Think about it, he is Winter, based in Chicago and Maeves Court was full of discord so of course he was there, he is just keeping a low profile, and as the court was underground, that profile was positively subterranean.

I thinks Jim has been playing a game with us over Cowl/Nameless and has pegged him as Harry’s Archenemy all along. I think he will either get Cowl to monologue the whole thing, or Harry will assess all his memories and finally make the deduction. Listen doubtlessly works ultimately for Cowl, not the Fomor or the Titan.

Offline vincentric

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2022, 11:59:29 PM »
Well I can't disprove that theory but I think that stretch is worthy of a bungee cord.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2022, 11:25:30 AM »
I have to go back and reread, but the circle she wanted to build, and the type of monsters and demons it was designed to contain, it was illegal or drew some interesting assumptions from the Wardens.  In other words if you needed to build that kind of circle to call up whatever or contain whatever, you were up to no good.. Remember his buddy Morgan?  At that point in time Harry didn't know he was really looking out for his welfare.

I think it was some of the glyphs in the circle were for containing "don't screw with them things". Sort of like walking to your local pet store in midtown Manhattan and asking for a cage for your pet. When they are thinking "Is it a parakeet? Or maybe a cocker spaniel?" and you are asking about inch thick bars that could hold a tiger or grizzly....  that sets off alarms.

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2022, 12:24:02 PM »
I think it was some of the glyphs in the circle were for containing "don't screw with them things". Sort of like walking to your local pet store in midtown Manhattan and asking for a cage for your pet. When they are thinking "Is it a parakeet? Or maybe a cocker spaniel?" and you are asking about inch thick bars that could hold a tiger or grizzly....  that sets off alarms.

I think it is more like someone walking into a pet store and asking for the kind of cage that would hold King Kong, but the person asking for it had no clue of what a gorilla even looked like.  The store owner though knowing about King Kong, isn't allowed to talk about him because the pet store merchant organization forbids any discussion about King Kong, except among experienced zoo keepers.  And yes, building such a cage without a license could cost you your head...
Fool Moon, page 8

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To say nothing of what the White Council would think of a nonwizard toying with major summing circles.  The White Council didn't take chances with things like that.  They just acted, decisively, and they weren't always particular about people's lives and safety when they did it.

I think that pretty well spells it out..
« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 12:27:44 PM by Mira »

Offline Ed0517

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2022, 07:34:16 AM »
ah, sounds like a "stop by any means necessary"  not a sentence as such but... if they die, they die.

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2022, 11:35:55 AM »
ah, sounds like a "stop by any means necessary"  not a sentence as such but... if they die, they die.
From Fool Moon page 5-6
  1] " The White Council of Wizards did no allow the discussion of demons that could be called to earth
beings of spirit that could gather flesh to themselves."
   2]"But this third circle was built to stop things that could transcend those kinds of boundaries.  It was a cage for demonic demigods and archangels."

Then if you jump to "Proven Guilty" and what the Merlin says about the White Council's views about young warlocks after they executed the Korean Kid.  They are not going to fool around with an amateur who builds that kind circle to cage a demigod or archangel.  They will assume the worst, "by any means necessary," means just that, fatal, even if it is messy.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 04:50:44 PM by Mira »