Author Topic: So Fitz is...  (Read 4417 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2022, 12:18:06 PM »
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Also, maybe the curse was laid by somebody the wizard was unwilling to cross; if it were Mab's curse -- or Odin's -- how much of a bribe would it take for you to be willing to earn their ire by lifting their decreed punishment?
 

Maybe Odin, but St Patrick came to Ireland in 425, I think he predates Mab.
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Note, Chauncy explicitly is reporting the legend -- not the facts.
Yeah, but I wouldn't hang my hat on that.  Legend is often based on facts, either an event happens that gets exaggerated over time, or something is made up to explain a fact.  Plus it might have been Chauncy's way of trying to trap Harry into giving him more personal information to hold over him. Harry didn't go for it, let's us not forget that shortly after that Chauncy danced around what happened to his mother and father, but wouldn't come clean until Harry put his soul more in peril by giving him more personal information.  Harry didn't dare go further than he did, in spite of desperately wanting more information after Chauncy baited him to go further.

One more interesting factoid, Bob says that to kill a Loop, one needs inherited silver verses just any silver.  That suggests two things, 1] making them much harder to kill than ordinary werewolves unless you are aware of that fact or get lucky because you melted down Aunt Mary's silver spoon to make bullets. 2] I think inherited is important since the curse is inherited, somehow the two are related. 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 12:25:48 PM by Mira »

Offline g33k

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2022, 11:42:14 PM »
Maybe Odin, but St Patrick came to Ireland in 425, I think he predates Mab.
  I think St.Patrick is entirely an Infernal deception, here.

Yeah, but I wouldn't hang my hat on that.  Legend is often based on facts, either an event happens that gets exaggerated over time, or something is made up to explain a fact...
You may be correct that there is some fragment of genuine linkage; but it's not likely to be a "truth" as spoken by Chaunzaggoroth.

Chauncy reported a legend (when he almost certainly knew the genuine facts) and he later chose misleading phrasing when challenged on that point.

As a demon, he's a congenital liar.

St. Patrick (almost certainly) did NOT enact the MacFinn curse.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2022, 07:30:26 AM »
St. Patrick (almost certainly) did NOT enact the MacFinn curse.

Aye! Cursing unborn innocent generations? Sounds more like an Orangeman trick...

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2022, 11:51:38 AM »
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Chauncy reported a legend (when he almost certainly knew the genuine facts) and he later chose misleading phrasing when challenged on that point.

As a demon, he's a congenital liar.

St. Patrick (almost certainly) did NOT enact the MacFinn curse.

We don't know how misleading, but he was deliberately vague.  However one point remained true,
it apparently was a curse that generational, and the victims of it could do little more than what Finn was already doing.  I'd wage that it wasn't he who came up with that circle but one of his ancestors.

I doubt that Chauncy is a congenital liar.  If he was not a true source of information, there would be no temptation to call him up by mortals putting their souls at risk.  He is more like a version of the Fae, except he doesn't say he cannot lie, but he will make you pay dearly for every word.

Since we don't know why the curse was put on the MacFinn clan until the end of time, we cannot say that St Patrick didn't do it.. He may have had a good reason to do it, and if he was able to rid Ireland of snakes, he'd also have the power to do that kind of curse.  Having said that, more than likely there is another part to it that is missing, a way to atone and lift the curse. St Patrick wouldn't have done the first part without the second.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2022, 12:24:02 PM »
St Patrick would have been clerical magician, his power comes through channeling the White God in the same way a Knight does, not internally like a Wizard. From what we seen of the Knights the laying of a curse does not seem within their bailiwick, but breaking it might.

The likelihood is not that St Patrick laid the curse, but he might have tried (but failed) to break it. Sainthood is designated by the Church not the White God. Michael and Father Forthill are not Saints, but clearly they are designated agents of the White God, one the former Knight who clearly retains the White God’s favour, and the other given special protection by the Angel of Death. St Patrick we don’t know.

That likely means an powerful entity with a wolf fetish and a grudge against mankind. My bet is that it was the Morrigan an Irish Warrior Wolf Goddess who laid the curse and it should be noted McFinn “turned” whilst serving in Vietnam. It may be a component of the curse that it’s bearers are drawn to war becoming the ultimate berserker on the battlefield. Any child of McFinn may find himself drawn to war and the military.


Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2022, 01:55:39 PM »
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That likely means an powerful entity with a wolf fetish and a grudge against mankind. My bet is that it was the Morrigan an Irish Warrior Wolf Goddess who laid the curse and it should be noted McFinn “turned” whilst serving in Vietnam. It may be a component of the curse that it’s bearers are drawn to war becoming the ultimate berserker on the battlefield. Any child of McFinn may find himself drawn to war and the military.

Or Finn was drafted like so many others who fought and died in that war.  Finn says he was the only survivor of his company, were his fellow soldiers killed in battle, or did he kill them because he couldn't manage his magic circle?  You gotta wonder about that, when Harry finds him in the woods he is trying to put together, but failing, a circle to contain himself with the material at hand.  He needed Kim because, he, himself, didn't have the skills to do it.  However we also don't know who put the sabotaged circle in place before Kim entered the scene.  So what did he do in the fricking jungle during the war?  Or during basic? He would have been on base presumedly for at least one full moon cycle.  Or did the Army know all about him, had a circle made to contain him when they needed to, and released him to kill the enemy when they needed to?  Was Finn used as a weapon like Agent Orange, and ultimately killed our own soldiers as well as the enemy? 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 04:22:20 PM by Mira »

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2022, 04:51:33 PM »
In the Jungle he likely aimed himself at the “enemy” and let go. The curse was designed to create an unstoppable weapon. On base my guess is he volunteered to to go out on patrol on full moon nights (the time no one would have wanted to go out at night) the stockade wouldn’t contain him. If he couldn’t pull night duty on patrol he would have gone AWOL. If on leave he would have gone into the jungle.

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2022, 06:23:04 PM »
In the Jungle he likely aimed himself at the “enemy” and let go. The curse was designed to create an unstoppable weapon. On base my guess is he volunteered to to go out on patrol on full moon nights (the time no one would have wanted to go out at night) the stockade wouldn’t contain him. If he couldn’t pull night duty on patrol he would have gone AWOL. If on leave he would have gone into the jungle.

Perhaps, but when in full Loop mode could Finn tell the difference between friend and foe?  I really doubt it, that is how the rest of his platoon was killed I am guessing, he did it. 

Offline g33k

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2022, 06:41:33 PM »
... I doubt that Chauncy is a congenital liar ...
He's a demon.  "Lying" (like violence) is his natural state of being.

... If he was not a true source of information, there would be no temptation to call him up by mortals putting their souls at risk ...
He is *capable* of providing true information.
But he does so tactically, strategically.
Where possible (and strategically advantageous) he misleads (recalling that overt lies from Down Under(*) are one of the things that can trigger extra Response from Up Above).

Chauncy's overarching lie is implicit:  that he can be trusted, that he is a reliable informant, that the risk is worth the gain.

Note that by making an issue out of "was it or wasn't it St. Patrick," Chauncy entirely avoids addressing who actually Cursed the MacFinn.  I suspect the real information is actually important (since Chauncy took some care to obscure it).


You recall:  by the end of Chauncy's scene, Dresden was shaken, and realized:  he had been falling for just this lie.
Dresden never summons Chauncy again.



(*) Apologies to all antipodeans, who (I presume) are not all lying demons

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2022, 11:25:25 AM »
He's a demon.  "Lying" (like violence) is his natural state of being.
He is *capable* of providing true information.
But he does so tactically, strategically.
Where possible (and strategically advantageous) he misleads (recalling that overt lies from Down Under(*) are one of the things that can trigger extra Response from Up Above).

Chauncy's overarching lie is implicit:  that he can be trusted, that he is a reliable informant, that the risk is worth the gain.

Note that by making an issue out of "was it or wasn't it St. Patrick," Chauncy entirely avoids addressing who actually Cursed the MacFinn.  I suspect the real information is actually important (since Chauncy took some care to obscure it).


You recall:  by the end of Chauncy's scene, Dresden was shaken, and realized:  he had been falling for just this lie.
Dresden never summons Chauncy again.



(*) Apologies to all antipodeans, who (I presume) are not all lying demons

No more than the Fae, who cannot lie but are misleading at the same time.

As for Harry's reaction, it had nothing to do with what Chauncy told him about Finn.  It had all to
do about the information Chauncy volunteered about his mother and father.  His resolve not to use Chauncy again had everything to do with the fact that Harry had gone as far as he dared.  Anymore about his name and Chauncy would have gained power over him.  It also put him in serious danger with the White Council for calling up a demon in the first place.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2022, 09:44:47 PM »
Perhaps he didn't try because there is no way to lift the curse.  I need to go back to reread the passage, but I believe Bob said as much.  I also think that McFinn and all of his ancestors would have searched for and found it if there was a way.  The only way to end it for the McFinns was to end the last McFinn, which Harry did.  However that doesn't mean there aren't other families out there suffering from the same kind of curse, so I wouldn't be shocked if there are more Loops out there, they just aren't McFinns.

The curse bloodline is, what, 1500 years old or so? Even if Fitz wasn't McFinn's son, that's plenty of time for there to be other cousin branches off the family tree for the curse to hop up and over to a next nearest relative.

As for the origin of the curse, I suspect Chauncey's "legend" about it being started by St Patrick was propaganda originated by the Denarians. Back in that era, creating a monster and telling the Irish "look what the Christians did!" probably would have seemed like a clever ploy to thwart conversion of Ireland.

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2022, 10:10:14 PM »
The curse bloodline is, what, 1500 years old or so? Even if Fitz wasn't McFinn's son, that's plenty of time for there to be other cousin branches off the family tree for the curse to hop up and over to a next nearest relative.

As for the origin of the curse, I suspect Chauncey's "legend" about it being started by St Patrick was propaganda originated by the Denarians. Back in that era, creating a monster and telling the Irish "look what the Christians did!" probably would have seemed like a clever ploy to thwart conversion of Ireland.

If Fitz is related to Finn in any way, yeah, the curse can fall on him, unless there is a closer relative. That's how the curse works and keeps alive.. However it doesn't seem to be a common curse, Bob said the last time a Loop really did some serious killing before it was killed was back in the 1600s I believe. Not a lot of them running around, Harry had never heard of them.  So I'd say that circle has been in use for quite some time, it could be that St Patrick himself came up with that circle because he couldn't lift the curse, and Chauncy was twisting the truth just a bit.  But I also think if Chauncy was a total liar, what would be the point of Harry calling him up for information and risking being controlled by giving Chauncy by giving him bits of his name?

Offline Ed0517

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2022, 05:06:40 AM »
He's a demon.  "Lying" (like violence) is his natural state of being.
He is *capable* of providing true information.
But he does so tactically, strategically.
Where possible (and strategically advantageous) he misleads (recalling that overt lies from Down Under(*) are one of the things that can trigger extra Response from Up Above).

I would not be surprised if Chauncey WAS allowed to lie, because he had been invoked. Whispering uninvited things in Harry's ear as he lies there was not solicited. Chauncey was. Harry called Chauncey out of free will

Offline Mira

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2022, 12:21:12 PM »
I would not be surprised if Chauncey WAS allowed to lie, because he had been invoked. Whispering uninvited things in Harry's ear as he lies there was not solicited. Chauncey was. Harry called Chauncey out of free will

Well, has always been free will that has gotten humanity into trouble hasn't it? Ever since Eve of her own free will took a bite of that apple, offered Adam a chomp, and he took it of his own free will. No, I doubt that he could do or say anything to Harry unsolicited, simply because it does involved free will.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: So Fitz is...
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2022, 06:25:08 PM »
Chauncy doesn’t lie, like a very good lawyer he tells partial truths, qualifies his replies and dangles ‘replies’ designed to elicit further questions from his victim, rather than answer their question.

Harry finally realised this.

I really wouldn’t be surprised to find Chauncy working with Nameless/Cowl. How else did the summoning rite for Chauncy get out into the mortal world? Nameless probably entrapped Ms Lapland and at least one Warden that way.

Chauncy could very well be part of the Circle/Black Council. For all we know the Black Council could be a firm of supernatural lawyer.s I won’t say “evil” lawyers, because well they are lawyers and it goes without saying. Add the Jann to the list and you have the firm of Nameless, Glau and Chauncey.

The other known Black Council member, Peabody was yet another paperwork type perhaps the firms paralegal.

We need to look for one of the Fallen bound to a lawyer, the poor thing.