Ramp vs Whamp origins

[g33k]

In another thread which was delving into Whamp'ery (and their origins), I spun off into a compare-and-contrast with Ramp'ery and its origins, writing (lightly edited), responding to suggestions that the Whamps' origin was a "long-ago Etruscan wizard who did a 'deal'" ...

I suspect that Jim won't write a same-y "some wizard done F'ed up" backstory for both [Ramps & Whamps], but yes:  I suspect one of them will be a result of some long-ago wizard(s).  I can make (what I feel are) excellent cases for each one being a "wizard F-up," but my bet is for this to be the Whamp origin-story.

My own theory isn't a wizard doing a "deal" but a summoning-gone-wrong, leading to either "Ramp Zero" or "Whamp Zero" (following the usage "Patient Zero").

As I noted in the other thread, there's a notable similarity in the origin-story of each *individual* Whamp & Ramp -- they have something inhuman inside of them, which reaches full expression when they kill.

So, why do I favor Whamps for the "wizard done F-up" origin?

Because

• Ramp'ism can be inflicted (by other Ramps)
• given the "black leathery skin" similarities between native-form Ramp's and the (summoned) Ik, I strongly suspect Ramps are native to the Nevernever -- Ramp & Ik being "related" beings.

Ramps in the Nevernever, I posit, first infected humans (who were exploring there), and came back to the mortal world via that vector.  Ramp'ism makes sense as having "Ramp Zero" be an attack in the Nevernever; it *could* equally have been a summoning-gone-wrong, but ... see below.

###

Whamps, in contrast, seem to have no separate documented existence, no physical form, outside their host; they are purely spirit, in a "possession" like model.  Nevertheless, they can breed when their host does -- the child of a Whamp is a Whamp-to-be (after first kill).    n.b. this is not true for Ramps.

But there is no other way to become a Whamp, no known source for a "Whamp Zero."

Except possession, an invading spirit taking up home in a host.  Possession seems like a "summoning" sort of thing.

And, of course, there's the obvious motivation -- lust, likely; but maybe another negative emotion.  That hypothetical long-ago Etruscan wizard could well have been motivated to summon a "spirit of lust" (or despair, or fear, or rage (Harry sees Raith / Lust as dominant, but we don't have much insight on Whamp history, and innumerable Whamp houses may have risen & fallen over the millenia)) for any number of reasons (not the least of which is seeking that personal-buff of extreme combat-power that Whamps can call upon).

I suspect Lust was the original "Whamp Zero," because the whole "seductive vampire" trope was Jim's original motivation in creating Whamps.

So, I think Whamps are a summons-gone-wrong origin-story.  Admittedly, the speculation (in that other thread) that I'm riffing off (a "deal" gone wrong) could also be true.

And Ramps are more like a "supernatural" version of sci-fi's Alien origin-story -- a horrific parasite implanted in an attack.

[Basil]

I'm in camp of the Whamps starting as a Wizard's deal, made by an ancient Etruscan wizard looking for a pathway to immortality. 

As for the Ramps, it support it depends on whether one considers the Red King and the Lords of Outer Night as simply the very first humans exposed to the Ramp "pathogen," or whether they were actual denizens of the Never Never that relocated here. 

[g33k]

... As for the Ramps, it support it depends on whether one considers the Red King and the Lords of Outer Night as simply the very first humans exposed to the Ramp "pathogen," or whether they were actual denizens of the Never Never that relocated here.

I think we don't have any information about that.

So, I'm trying to infer from what we *do* know.

It takes a Whamp to create a Whamp, and it takes a Ramp to create a Ramp.  On that basis, both have a "chicken and egg" problem with the "first Ramp / first Whamp" having no possible progenitor.

My suggestion is that:
 (a) since the Whamps' "Hunger Demon" seems to be a spirit with zero physical being of its own, "Whamp Zero" makes good sense as a "summoning-gone-wrong"
&
 (b) the Ramp method of propagation allows for it to be a straight-up physical attack (*not* to be a wizard summoning) by a "black bat-monster within (or from) the Nevernever"
&
 (c) Jim would likely want the Ramp/Whamp origin stories to be different.

[Con]

Paranet Papers has a section on Red Court origins. Basically Red Courts started being worshiped by a tribe as gods, then they captured another tribes actual gods and started feeding off of them. You are what you eat. Bo The Red Court attained actual godhood by feeding off of other Gods.

Said Gods escaped their imprisonment once the Red Court fell. They're left largely nameless but Thomas has a Venatori interest in them trying to confiscate the knowledge section

[Regenbogen]

I have that wild guess about Whamps.
Lara and Thomas are involved in the Oblivion War. And all the other members of the Court?
I think this was the White Court's original purpose.
I think long ago, maybe even before mankind there were these creatures native to earth whose task was to fight threats to earth and to reality itself. Probably even the original first guardians of the outer gates. But something changed or was done to them during that ongoing war and they were made unable to exist on their own in this world. Maybe they temporarily possessed some humans here and there. But nothing safe, nothing lasting.

 So they made a deal with a group of humans, either wizards, religious cultists or families (or all of them) that were ready to take over that fight.
To be able to do that, the humans needed a significant power-up, which makes them both stronger and give them longer lives. So both groups made a deal:

Demons: we can help you if you take us into your own bodies and those of your descendants, so we can exist in this world again. You take on the oblivion war.

Humans: we help you survive in our own bodies, so we can both continue the fight. What are a few human lives to the safety of the universe.

So I think it was more a mutual agreement at first. Probably the original purpose has been forgotten long ago by most of the members, but only the ruler and his descendants carry on the knowledge.


The Ramps...
Those I have the feeling were cursed to be invaded by the batlike creatures.  Probably in a ritual originally intended as some sort of honour and initiation to a bloodthirsty cult. Or to become godlike themselves. At first a small elite group. Those were worshipped.
But soon it got out of hand, because some minor Ramps started to turn random people. Or they were encouraged to do so to create cannon fodder.


There is no evidence in the text or WOJ as I know of. These are just my theories.

The Whamps are in symbiosis with their demons and the Ramps are possessed. That's why the Whamps can reproduce and the Ramps have to force themselves on humans to create more of them.

I am not so sure about my Ramp theories, but I am pretty convinced about the Whamps. With nothing but the idea of how they got involved in the Oblivion War.
And for the Ramps: the hierarchy in Chicken Itzá.



Edit:

Whamps
1. This could be the reason why Mab wants a closer alliance with them. Their original purpose.
2. I can see in this light why young Whamps are not told what they are until it is too late. They have to make sure there are as many hosts/warriors as possible.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Re-reading Thomas POV story only he and Lara are Venators in the White Court, so that is not the purpose of the Court.

Lara and Thomas are outliers look, at the other Whamps to see what they are, predators pure and simple.

If somebeing created or adapted the Whamps it was as predators of mankind, they are not denizens of the Never Never, but in doing so it has been culling from humanity those with some of its most negative traits, not unlike the Skavis culling the talented.

Now which being might be powerful enough to do this and have an incentive to cull these negative traits and reinforce their positive opposites, love, hope and faith?

The White God created the Whamps to force on mankind’s moral evolution, just as he did the Fae to force the technological evolution and the transition from the Bronze Age of mankind.

Despite its monsters, mankind has thrived.

The endpoint is probably the Singularity, the creation of the White God by mankind.

[g33k]

Re-reading Thomas POV story only he and Lara are Venators in the White Court ...

That Thomas knows of.
But the Venators are ultra-secretive; they all work in small cells of operatives.
Thomas wouldn't know of any other cells, that's standard protocol.

We actually have  zero  information as to whether any other Whamps are/aren't Venators.

I expect only the Archive has something anywhere close to a full accounting of all Venatori; and even there, a particularly-secretive cell-leader might have recruited another cell, but never committed anything in writing...