Author Topic: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)  (Read 9408 times)

Offline TrueMonk

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2022, 11:27:30 PM »
As far as we know immortals can be killed by the eye and on Halloween. And some? Maybe only the fairy queens, can be killed on the stone table.

This is in contrast to e.g. Denarians who can be killed all the time and by normal means.

Bob is clear in the distinction in Cold Days in the conversation where he tells Harry he cannot kill Maeve because she is immortal.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2022, 12:08:56 AM »
As far as we know immortals can be killed by the eye and on Halloween. And some? Maybe only the fairy queens, can be killed on the stone table.

This is in contrast to e.g. Denarians who can be killed all the time and by normal means.

Bob is clear in the distinction in Cold Days in the conversation where he tells Harry he cannot kill Maeve because she is immortal.

There are different grades of immortality in the Dresden Files and it is called out many times in the books.

There's the little "i" type possessed by Denarians, Fae, Vampires and the like. They don't age or sicken and and very difficult to kill. But they can be killed if subjected to enough damage. of course the amount of force required to kill Thomas or Lara is a bit different than what it takes to stop Eldest Gruff or the Leansidhe.

Then there are the capital "I" types like the Queens, Hades, Odin and the Erlking among others, who can only be killed at special times or by special means. Those are the ones that will come back from a threshing machine or a dip in an active volcano. It may take some time but they'll be back with another line on their to do list.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2022, 04:41:35 AM »
It’s the difference between not agelessness and immortality.

Denarians, Vamps, sidhe are ageless, time doesn’t diminish them, but they can be killed with varying degrees of effort.

Immortals on the hand can’t (they don’t like to talk about Halloween) the Queen’s Mantles are constructs and had a back door built into it the Stone Table.

Aside from the Queens, the other Immortals we have seen are The Kringle Mantle, Erl King, the Naagloshii, Uriel, the Angel of Death, Ethnui, Hades, the Fallen. If the Darkhallow requires an immortal there aren’t that many roaming around these days, and some are just too powerful (the Mothers, Hades, Uriel, the Angel of Death, Ethnui, the Fallen) to even try to summon. The Erl King was probably the weakest and most accessible. The Ladies are ‘weak’ but are an artificial construct so would they work? Kemmler could have undertaken a Darkhallow using Maeve only to find to his horror he was the new Winter Lady subject to Winters rules, and being physically reshaped to the task.

Offline TrueMonk

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2022, 10:23:47 AM »
I guess you could argue that the coins are very convenient to transport to the site of the darkhallow, but of course eating a fallen is probably too much for most even with a lot of preparation.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2022, 11:34:11 AM »
I guess you could argue that the coins are very convenient to transport to the site of the darkhallow, but of course eating a fallen is probably too much for most even with a lot of preparation.

You really don’t want to swallow a coin, especially when it doesn’t have chocolate inside. The only thing nastier than a Fallen is White Chocolate.

Not sure even a Darkhallow could separate a Fallen from their coin but that may be what Drakul had in mind when Mavra got Ammorachius in Grave Peril, tainted by Harry’s misuse, he had been looking for the Word probably for years, knew the Swords contained Angels and was going to consume one in a Darkhallow, along with everyone else in Chicago, becoming the dark and powerful god of evening wear. That would be why Cowl was in attendance, he may not have known the Swords contained an Angel, if he had (and had been searching for the Word himself) he wouldn’t have had to wait for Harry to summon the Erl King.

If so Harry would be his number one target as (1) a Starborn and (2) the Destroyer of Tuxedo’s.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2022, 04:15:35 AM »
I did a back of envelope sonewhere else on here.

It's a window of time. When Harry was born- circa 1970- that number represents something like a half hour or hour (I misremember) of births.
Which is so strange, I think, as celestial movements can play out over much longer periods of time. But I do think you're right in that it's only a special hour or so that happens, and that's where the 40-50 thousand number comes in. That being said...it's surely not just births, as Jim hinted that you only need to be in the right (wrong?) place at the right time (which Jim thinks makes you really unlucky). Being born is by no means the only way to become a star born it would appear.

It’s the difference between not agelessness and immortality.

Denarians, Vamps, sidhe are ageless, time doesn’t diminish them, but they can be killed with varying degrees of effort.

Immortals on the hand can’t (they don’t like to talk about Halloween) the Queen’s Mantles are constructs and had a back door built into it the Stone Table.

Aside from the Queens, the other Immortals we have seen are The Kringle Mantle, Erl King, the Naagloshii, Uriel, the Angel of Death, Ethnui, Hades, the Fallen. If the Darkhallow requires an immortal there aren’t that many roaming around these days, and some are just too powerful (the Mothers, Hades, Uriel, the Angel of Death, Ethnui, the Fallen) to even try to summon. The Erl King was probably the weakest and most accessible. The Ladies are ‘weak’ but are an artificial construct so would they work? Kemmler could have undertaken a Darkhallow using Maeve only to find to his horror he was the new Winter Lady subject to Winters rules, and being physically reshaped to the task.
This is essentially correct as far as I can tell. Although I believe Bob explained that it was the entire battlefield of Chicago-over-Chicago that was charged/prepared for the killing of Immortals, not just the Stone Table. The Stone Table seems to have other purposes, namely around the transfer of energy.


Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2022, 12:03:12 PM »
Let’s Say Harry was born during the witching hour, in Cook County Hospital on the 31st October 1970 something so much of it was made of it by Jim in Peace Talks, so that must be a clue. Also someone born at night could be described as starborn, little s. Someone born during the witching hour on a particular Halloween is Starborn.

I think over Chicago was designed for the Mantles, a specific back door to allow a Queen to be dethroned, which they have in the past. Remember Summer are the watchdogs of Winter. Halloween is for everyone it would allow for the trading of power between consenting Immortals, the end of an immortal and I think the involuntary transfer of power between an immortal and a Starborn via a Darkhallow.

Offline Mira

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2022, 03:32:35 PM »
Quote
Which is so strange, I think, as celestial movements can play out over much longer periods of time. But I do think you're right in that it's only a special hour or so that happens, and that's where the 40-50 thousand number comes in. That being said...it's surely not just births, as Jim hinted that you only need to be in the right (wrong?) place at the right time (which Jim thinks makes you really unlucky). Being born is by no means the only way to become a star born it would appear.

Or considering the population of the earth, it could be millions born in the special hour.  So it stands to reason that it is a lot more complicated than it appears to conceive and give birth to a star born.  Lash hinted that it was to Harry, she made it clear that it took a lot of planning on Margaret's part for it to happen.  It is also clear that in her choice of Malcolm to be her star child's father Margaret was trying to break the mold for the norm of what a star child is.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2022, 05:01:30 PM »
It strikes me that Listens,  another Starborn knows Chicago well enough to be a forward planner for the Fomor. Another Chicago native? Was he responsible for the books and belts in SF and FM? Did  he plan the way for Cowl in GP? Was he a Red Court agent until there was no Red Court and the go to the Fomor? And was he a Black Council agent all along?

You are thinking the entire Earth, but what if it’s like a solar eclipse?, there is a path? where it plays over only part of the earth for an hour the witching hour), and Chicago was the only big city in the path this time (Romania last time for Drakul’s current body). If that can be plotted then it can be predicted, you merely need to time the birth for that specific hour in that pathway. Easy using time dilation of the Ways.

Remember everything boils down to Chicago, Changes is the only book where something significant in the Supernatural world happens outside of Chicago.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2022, 05:26:21 PM »
Not enough data.  There is nothing in the text that indicates where Harry was born.  The closest we get to that moment is placing Margaret and Malcolm at the Lincoln Monument just before Harry is born.  Given the 666 year cycle it could be some type of comet or asteroid.  There is no way to know. Butcher could be basing it on something like Highlander, there can be only one! I know one thing.  He has a fascination with vampires.

Offline Mira

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2022, 07:12:32 PM »
Quote
You are thinking the entire Earth, but what if it’s like a solar eclipse?, there is a path? where it plays over only part of the earth for an hour the witching hour), and Chicago was the only big city in the path this time (Romania last time for Drakul’s current body). If that can be plotted then it can be predicted, you merely need to time the birth for that specific hour in that pathway. Easy using time dilation of the Ways

Timing birth for specific hour?  How about minute and or second?  None of that is as easy as it sounds even with all the modern ways of inducing labor... Does cesarean section count to get the moment of birth right?   

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2022, 11:27:09 PM »
Margaret had previously had a child, so she was not a first time mother, so a shorter labour was likely. Hitting a particular day would involve her using the ways temporal effects to get her due date to Halloween, most likely delaying labor, so she ‘overshoots’ her due date. From then she would need a doctor to induce labor, a little bit of Earth magic to squeeze the baby out with a focussed gravitational field (her father and her son both did that spell) and Bob’s your uncle. The child is Starborn as soon as it is independent of Margaret, and the entropy curse bites on Margaret and she uses her Death Curse on Raith.

Offline Mira

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2022, 05:32:13 AM »
Margaret had previously had a child, so she was not a first time mother, so a shorter labour was likely. Hitting a particular day would involve her using the ways temporal effects to get her due date to Halloween, most likely delaying labor, so she ‘overshoots’ her due date. From then she would need a doctor to induce labor, a little bit of Earth magic to squeeze the baby out with a focussed gravitational field (her father and her son both did that spell) and Bob’s your uncle. The child is Starborn as soon as it is independent of Margaret, and the entropy curse bites on Margaret and she uses her Death Curse on Raith.

Just because her labor time might be shorter, that doesn't make the timing any easier.  Here is another question, Raith managed to locate her for the entropy curse, was he trying to kill both mother and child? Apparently not, why?

Offline vincentric

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2022, 05:50:23 AM »
He may not have known about Harry even existing at the time. Or you may have to do one person at a time with the curse.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Star Born (direct quotes compilation)
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2022, 07:09:58 AM »
I have a theory that Harry is largely immune to curses, entropy and death as well as prophecy and predestination, he has avoided all of them at one point or other. This may be because he is Starborn, but what about before he was born? If Harry could be protected postpartum by being made Starborn he would require some other immunity until he was born.

If so then as soon as he was independent of his mother any immunity he had which he shared with his mother in Utero was withdrawn from her. Perhaps Raith had been cycling up his favourite entropy curse on Margaret for some considerable time only for him to be thwarted. As it stands Margaret may have known. Her choosing Malcolm may have provoked this, a rejection Raith couldn’t countenance. This makes sense as she had her death curse already lined up so she obviously knew she was under magical attack.

The in utero immunity? The Leansidhe, the price? the first born female of her line, little Maggie. This why Lea is Harry’s godmother, he never would have been born otherwise, and why she had a continuing interest in him, she been waiting for him to have children. Maggie was conceived in Harry’s old apartment, which backed onto Leas garden in the NeverNever. Did Lea have a hand in that? Where did Harry actually get the unicorn hair rope? Lea herself is a muse, as much as a seductress as Lasciel, so not out of the question.