Star Born (direct quotes compilation)

[Mira]

All the more reason to kill Margaret before the birth of the child.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The entropy curse may have been the only way to do this if Margaret has fallen off the grid escaping Raith, the White Court owned property in Chicago and Lara and Thomas appear to have been domiciled there at the the time of Harry’s birth, so why not a conventional hit? Either Lara was complicit in hiding Margaret from Raith or Margaret had a heavy hitter on her side, a power greater even than her Father. That does suggest Lea.

[morriswalters]

The in utero immunity? The Leansidhe, the price? the first born female of her line, little Maggie.

Margaret couldn't bargain using something she didn't have and didn't control.   Lea would be a fool for taking any such bargain.

Almost certainly she hid Margaret and given the timing, whatever deal she had died at birth.

[Mira]

Margaret couldn't bargain using something she didn't have and didn't control.   Lea would be a fool for taking any such bargain.

Almost certainly she hid Margaret and given the timing, whatever deal she had died at birth.

I don't disagree with that, I also think it is even more complicated than we know.  I wouldn't be shocked if Mab was even deeply involved than we know in the conception of Harry.  I think the bargain goes further than the usual "first child" in exchange for protection thing.  Mab thinks in the long term, she knows her job is to protect the Outer Gates and that there was a lot of deep pooh on tap for the future.  I also wouldn't be shocked if Rashid had something to do with this as well.  He knew Margaret well, they were friends and together worked with the Winter Court.  I am willing to bet that neither he nor Margaret fully trusted the White Council to do what is needed for the coming BAT.  When Malcolm came along, it was agreed that he had the elements they needed to contribute to a star child.  Margaret knew she was a target as soon as she left Raith, and being pregnant made her even more vulnerable.  So the unprecedented step to make Lea the godmother to the child was taken, in exchange the child would be the future Winter Knight. Rashid also pledged to protect the child from the White Council, which he has done from time to time.  Yes, Morgan pledged this, but he also had second thoughts, pursued Harry and in some ways made things worse.  Rashid is more under the radar, taking Harry's side in front of the Council, but not overtly, instead as a powerful voice of reason that the Merlin and other member find hard to contradict.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Rashid was likely at the Outer Gates with Lea repelling the Outsiders attack, he didn’t vote on Harry’s expulsion. If The Merlin has concerns about the Gatekeeper turning up and swinging the vote in favour of Harry, as had occurred previously he must have known about the attack on the Outer Gates and possibly Chicago. His envoys were all disposable to him including the Wardens, he didn’t risk his old guard in Chicago, or Mai his closest ally. Martha Liberty without Eb and LTW voted against Harry, because he badly frightened her with the Little Folk.

WOJ has it that Margaret made a bargain with Lea and that when Harry finds out what it is he is going want to kill Lea. There is nothing further Lea can want from Harry, except Maggie. Harry’s own bargain with Lea was passed to Mab, but the blood debt Margaret incurred would be separate.

Because of the blood debt Lea was always interested in Harry, I suspect Bob was spying for her (his mother) from Justin onwards.

I think Mab’s interest only started when Harry moved to Chicago, actually with Restoration of Faith, and the Troll a subject of Winter most likely Shortly after that Harry found Mister and as speculated elsewhere Mister was placed to spy on Harry by Mab (Mab’s the cat person, Lea’s a dog person). Mister enjoys being a cat and was an appalling spy, Mab lost him after the whiff of catnip.

[Mira]

WOJ has it that Margaret made a bargain with Lea and that when Harry finds out what it is he is going want to kill Lea. There is nothing further Lea can want from Harry, except Maggie. Harry’s own bargain with Lea was passed to Mab, but the blood debt Margaret incurred would be separate.

That's not a huge revelation, Harry has wanted to kill Lea from the beginning, it was his attempt to kill her with the Sword of Love in Grave Peril that enabled her to get hold of it, bring it to the infamous party that nearly shattered it in an attempt to sacrifice an innocent.

[Yuillegan]

Or considering the population of the earth, it could be millions born in the special hour.  So it stands to reason that it is a lot more complicated than it appears to conceive and give birth to a star born.  Lash hinted that it was to Harry, she made it clear that it took a lot of planning on Margaret's part for it to happen.  It is also clear that in her choice of Malcolm to be her star child's father Margaret was trying to break the mold for the norm of what a star child is.

Presumably it only affects those born "in the that light" i.e. the spot light (which I am sure would occur during the night/early morning). So I would presume it's quite literally a cosmic light, hitting one side of the planet. That would include all of North America (USA, Canada), Central America, Cuba and the Central American islands, Mexico, the most nothern parts of South America (i.e. parts of Brazil etc), parts of the Artic Circle, the western part of Russia, parts of Japan, parts of China, parts of Korea, parts of New Zealand and Australia (and a number of Pacific Islands), and some parts of South-East Asia.

My guess is though it isn't all of them surely, for the number would be higher. It will be a literal thing like "born under a blood moon" type of thing. Will it matter if the births are indoors? Not sure. Will the babies need to be sanctified? Not sure. Will those who are in the light who are not babies be affected? Unclear.

So many questions.

It strikes me that Listens,  another Starborn knows Chicago well enough to be a forward planner for the Fomor. Another Chicago native? Was he responsible for the books and belts in SF and FM? Did  he plan the way for Cowl in GP? Was he a Red Court agent until there was no Red Court and the go to the Fomor? And was he a Black Council agent all along?

You are thinking the entire Earth, but what if it’s like a solar eclipse?, there is a path? where it plays over only part of the earth for an hour the witching hour), and Chicago was the only big city in the path this time (Romania last time for Drakul’s current body). If that can be plotted then it can be predicted, you merely need to time the birth for that specific hour in that pathway. Easy using time dilation of the Ways.

Remember everything boils down to Chicago, Changes is the only book where something significant in the Supernatural world happens outside of Chicago.

I think you might be right about Listen. He is just has too much on the ball.

I also agree that Chicago is clearly the centre of everything for some reason, and your theory about how it might be just a particular area might make sense. Perhaps the light is only focussed on a particular place, and Chicago would make sense.

Not enough data.  There is nothing in the text that indicates where Harry was born.  The closest we get to that moment is placing Margaret and Malcolm at the Lincoln Monument just before Harry is born.  Given the 666 year cycle it could be some type of comet or asteroid.  There is no way to know. Butcher could be basing it on something like Highlander, there can be only one! I know one thing.  He has a fascination with vampires.

That is true. As I said earlier though, I would say on balance of probabilities it's likely in America, and Chicago seems to be the most significant place in America in the series. No idea why that is (in terms of in-universe reasons, obviously we know the Doylist reasons that Jim needed to set the series there). There are enough references to Highlander that I am sure that it has something to do with everything...that being said there isn't much real-world myth to back up Highlander and from what I have seen of Highlander and researched about the greater universe it is in, there isn't a lot that links to the series. In fact, it's so general it could link to anything. However, there is a thing about the source of immortality in Highlander being linked to a cosmic conjunction where literally every planet in the universe somehow "lines" up.

He does have a fascination with vampires, and there significance in the series is more than just monster-of-the-week. I'd say there is a link to the greater secrets of the series yet I can't tell what it is.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Yes, Listen’s as the Black Council’s tame Starborn from birth, working first with the Red Court, and then with Fomor, and who knows next? He obviously has burnt his bridges with the Fomor, he was more the Black Council’s liaison with Ethnui rather than Corb, and it’s clear we haven’t seen the last of him. It’s interesting he only comes to the fore when Harry is presumed dead, perhaps he thought it safe to take a more visible role?

For all we know Listen is the Dresden equivalent of “My Shadow”, and he has been shadowing Harry for years, beyond the spell books and belts, I bet he was responsible for the explosives in Harry’s office, it is very much his style rather than a typical Red Court plot. He may have been responsible for several of the little mysteries that have plagued fandom throughout the books, acting opportunistically without exposing himself, even where the Black Council have not been the apparent villain.

This is his description from the Wiki

Like all servitors, he wears a black turtleneck. His eyes have changed from a clear grey during the combat with Molly Carpenter to a deep purple like a "bruised corpse" during the visit with the Grey Ghost. In Bombshells he is described as a pale skinned, fit man of middle height with dark, intelligent eyes and a military short haircut.

Aside from the eyes the description could apply to multiple background characters. Eyes are significant and may indicate he is a scion (Whamps, and Goodman Grey for example) of what I have no idea. You have a Wizard Starborn and scion Starborn and whatever the hell Drakul is/was. All the purely human Starborn may have been eliminated.

[Mira]

Presumably it only affects those born "in the that light" i.e. the spot light (which I am sure would occur during the night/early morning). So I would presume it's quite literally a cosmic light, hitting one side of the planet. That would include all of North America (USA, Canada), Central America, Cuba and the Central American islands, Mexico, the most nothern parts of South America (i.e. parts of Brazil etc), parts of the Artic Circle, the western part of Russia, parts of Japan, parts of China, parts of Korea, parts of New Zealand and Australia (and a number of Pacific Islands), and some parts of South-East Asia.

My guess is though it isn't all of them surely, for the number would be higher. It will be a literal thing like "born under a blood moon" type of thing. Will it matter if the births are indoors? Not sure. Will the babies need to be sanctified? Not sure. Will those who are in the light who are not babies be affected? Unclear.

So many questions.

Indeed, that is why I think that the "conceiving" of a star born is at least as complicated as time of birth and place of birth.  It is obvious that Harry's birth was no accident, once she met Malcolm, Margaret did a great deal of planning to bring Harry's birth about.  What is more I think Malcolm did a lot more than just supply the sperm at the right time.  I say this because in both his dream/soul gaze sequences when Harry talks with his father and his mother they both express regret for what they put on him, an innocent, by their plans.

[Yuillegan]

Indeed, that is why I think that the "conceiving" of a star born is at least as complicated as time of birth and place of birth.  It is obvious that Harry's birth was no accident, once she met Malcolm, Margaret did a great deal of planning to bring Harry's birth about.  What is more I think Malcolm did a lot more than just supply the sperm at the right time.  I say this because in both his dream/soul gaze sequences when Harry talks with his father and his mother they both express regret for what they put on him, an innocent, by their plans.

The problem is that how do we reconcile the special circumstances of the star born creation with the fact that 40-50,000 were created in a single cycle.

Is this usual per cycle? Is it more? Less?

Hence why I think Chicago is the necessary location...rather than 50,000 different babies being prepared in different locations.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The other thing about Chicago is that it appears to have become the mortal base for a number of supernatural nations and powers, the Swartalves, White Court, Winter and Summer (both original knights were local and their replacements continue to be) a Knight of the Cross and the Twylyth Teg (poor Gwyn, he should have joined the Accords, perhaps the survivors will). This may have been in anticipation of the searchlight hitting Chicago during the witching hour and the appearance of Starborn in the City, jockeying for position to influence the Starborn and events for the benefit of their nations/causes.

The other thing thinking on Stars and Stones. Could the Stones refer to birthstones? Harry (and all other Starborn) have the birthstone of Opal, the same gem Molly used in the pinky ring simulacra for Harry in Peace Talks. coincidence?

From Wikipedia

“In the Middle Ages, opal was considered a stone that could provide great luck because it was believed to possess all the virtues of each gemstone whose color was represented in the color spectrum of the opal.[55] It was also said to grant invisibility if wrapped in a fresh bay leaf and held in the hand.[55][56] Following the publication of Sir Walter Scott's Anne of Geierstein in 1829, opal acquired a less auspicious reputation. In Scott's novel, the Baroness of Arnheim wears an opal talisman with supernatural powers. When a drop of holy water falls on the talisman, the opal turns into a colorless stone and the Baroness dies soon thereafter. Due to the popularity of Scott's novel, people began to associate opals with bad luck and death.[55] Within a year of the publishing of Scott's novel in April 1829, the sale of opals in Europe dropped by 50%, and remained low for the next 20 years or so.[57]

Even as recently as the beginning of the 20th century, it was believed that when a Russian saw an opal among other goods offered for sale, he or she should not buy anything more, as the opal was believed to embody the evil eye.[55]

Opal is considered the birthstone for people born in October.[58]”

I have remarked on other threads of the connection of the Dresden Files with Sir Walter Scott, here’s another one. Opal was very rare from Greco- Roman time until discoveries in Australia and Nevada, it was only found in Slovakia

[Mira]

The problem is that how do we reconcile the special circumstances of the star born creation with the fact that 40-50,000 were created in a single cycle.

Is this usual per cycle? Is it more? Less?

Hence why I think Chicago is the necessary location...rather than 50,000 different babies being prepared in different locations.

Or is that resolved by most of the babies born during that cycle don't make it to adulthood?  Fifty thousand star born babies born around the world might work, but not all in Chicago, world wide there are only 350,000 kids born each day.  Also apparently September through December are the highest birth months..  My own four grand-kids fit into that one, and they were all born in Chicago. 
Also in centuries past, if you take into that number not just the rate of live births but infant mortality have to be taken into account.  Accordingly at least half of the children born as star born would have died 666 years ago before reaching puberty, I did look it up, today only about 2.9% die before reaching puberty today.  According to what I read, the birth rate hasn't changed that much, but the rate of survival has, that is why we now have a population problem.   

Anyway, I go back to my original premise, if the birth rate for a star born is that high, even if it takes place only once every 666 years there is nothing really special about it in my opinion.  On par perhaps with White Court Vampires.  Also while fifty thousand were born under that light, how many of their parents went through the various rituals to make it an actual fact?  As in fifty thousand potential star borns born, but out of that maybe five or only one actually are, because of how their conception and birth was brought about.  That would solve why Justin adopted both Elaine and Harry, both had the potential, but so far unless we learn different, only one turned out to be one... Or it is Harry Potter and Nevil Longbottom all over again...

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Where are we getting 50,000 from?

In novel only Listen, Harry and Drakul  has been described as Starborn. To a certain extent Jim is making it up as he is going along (it’s fiction) and also Jim lies in WOJ (he even lied in novel in Christmas Eve on line, it’s not true until it’s on paper and bound and sold for less than $50.)

All Jim needs to retcon is that Elaine was required for another but related  purpose, a vessel for Nemesis perhaps, a nice mortal but powerful wizard body,  if Harry was scheduled for Kemmler. That kind of makes sense, Justin was building up their talent for others to benefit from when their bodies were taken over.

[Yuillegan]

The other thing about Chicago is that it appears to have become the mortal base for a number of supernatural nations and powers, the Swartalves, White Court, Winter and Summer (both original knights were local and their replacements continue to be) a Knight of the Cross and the Twylyth Teg (poor Gwyn, he should have joined the Accords, perhaps the survivors will). This may have been in anticipation of the searchlight hitting Chicago during the witching hour and the appearance of Starborn in the City, jockeying for position to influence the Starborn and events for the benefit of their nations/causes.

The other thing thinking on Stars and Stones. Could the Stones refer to birthstones? Harry (and all other Starborn) have the birthstone of Opal, the same gem Molly used in the pinky ring simulacra for Harry in Peace Talks. coincidence?
...

That's interesting about the birth stones. I am not so sure that is what Jim is planning re: stars and stones but it's intriguing in and of itself.

I have often been annoyed that Chicago seems to be the mortal base for so many supernatural nations until I started thinking there probably was a reason beyond Jim needing them there, and it will eventually come out that Chicago is extra-important.

Or is that resolved by most of the babies born during that cycle don't make it to adulthood?  Fifty thousand star born babies born around the world might work, but not all in Chicago, world wide there are only 350,000 kids born each day.  Also apparently September through December are the highest birth months..  My own four grand-kids fit into that one, and they were all born in Chicago. 
Also in centuries past, if you take into that number not just the rate of live births but infant mortality have to be taken into account.  Accordingly at least half of the children born as star born would have died 666 years ago before reaching puberty, I did look it up, today only about 2.9% die before reaching puberty today.  According to what I read, the birth rate hasn't changed that much, but the rate of survival has, that is why we now have a population problem.   

Anyway, I go back to my original premise, if the birth rate for a star born is that high, even if it takes place only once every 666 years there is nothing really special about it in my opinion.  On par perhaps with White Court Vampires.  Also while fifty thousand were born under that light, how many of their parents went through the various rituals to make it an actual fact?  As in fifty thousand potential star borns born, but out of that maybe five or only one actually are, because of how their conception and birth was brought about.  That would solve why Justin adopted both Elaine and Harry, both had the potential, but so far unless we learn different, only one turned out to be one... Or it is Harry Potter and Nevil Longbottom all over again...

Perhaps if we think of it more like radiation it might work better. Potentially anyone could have been affected in Chicago during the 666 conjunction but we don't know exactly who or when. Jim knows it's 50k or so...but how many others know?

I guarantee the Ethniu and Vadderung types know though. Does Cowl and the Council? Harder to say.

And who is eliminating these star born? Wizards? Black Council? Outsiders? Men in Black?

Where are we getting 50,000 from?

In novel only Listen, Harry and Drakul  has been described as Starborn. To a certain extent Jim is making it up as he is going along (it’s fiction) and also Jim lies in WOJ (he even lied in novel in Christmas Eve on line, it’s not true until it’s on paper and bound and sold for less than $50.)

All Jim needs to retcon is that Elaine was required for another but related  purpose, a vessel for Nemesis perhaps, a nice mortal but powerful wizard body,  if Harry was scheduled for Kemmler. That kind of makes sense, Justin was building up their talent for others to benefit from when their bodies were taken over.

It comes from a WOJ just after Battle Ground I believe. Jim was asked about how many were running around and he said 40-50, 000 this cycle which doesn't account for previous cycles. And he said the cycles have been going since the beginning of Creation. It's to do with Lucifer's messing around.

I'll find it for you if I can.

[morriswalters]

I wouldn't worry too much about random numbers Butcher pulled out of his butt.  Chicago didn't exist 666 years ago. Since he set the books in Chicago he therefore must center the story around that locale.  The idea of Demonreach is the weakest because of that choice. It's 4000 miles from London. No one from the era of Hastings had any idea at that moment that 5 freshwater lakes existed in North America.  And no one other than someone who walked here knew of North America. How Merlin figured this out is a mystery. The Caspian Sea is the largest lake and it isn't in Chicago. So if you needed a big lake and were in Europe you would have went East and not West to find your fresh water lake.  In any sense where logic applies the fact that Demonreach exists in Chicago implies it exists because someone in Chicago today put it there for some reason.

Regarding Harry as Starborn as far as the text is concerned the genesis of the idea is exposed by Eb when he discusses a meeting where Margaret laid out a plan to do something  that she thought the White Council might buy into.  How's that for a run on sentence? There are two ways to look at her pregnancy.  She was either pregnant when she ran or just randomly tripped over Malcolm while looking for a random sperm donor for her plan. Color me skeptical on the latter of those two possibilities.

The markings on Demonreach and the castle are interesting. That the Skin Walker isn't frightened suggests that he doesn't associate them with a prison capable of holding him. I'm thinking old ones or angels, someone from his other existence.