Author Topic: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?  (Read 10641 times)

Offline groinkick

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2021, 03:37:11 AM »
@groinkick
Eb will die in a fight.  Men like him don't die quietly.  So as you age at some point you realize that you will never be as strong as you were the last time and that sooner or later you won't be strong enough to win.  That's how Jim is writing him. He's signaling that the fight is in the near future.

I don't think he's bending time.  Somebody is time traveling. Or crossing between time lines.

I hope to see him go out in a blaze of glory, but years ago I had a prediction that I really hope doesn't happen.  My prediction was that he'd be shackled with the thorned manacles that don't allow him to use magic.  He will be beheaded by the Council.  Carlos saying that would happen if he didn't kill Dresden if ordered to makes me think it's more likely.  It would be a way of really getting Harry to declare war on the Council (and be emotional for the fans).
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2021, 03:40:02 AM »
Oh, Eb is still a badass that can stomp on most anyone; that's not what I'm saying.  But Eb, Listens to Wind, and Martha Liberty are given descriptions that make them seem past their prime, moreso than in previous books.  Maybe I'm reading more into what River Shoulders was saying in PT.

Yeah I agree with this.  What really kind of stinks is that there isn't any good replacements for the "new order".  I see the end game is Harry will basically be Merlin, and he will be part of the Round Table, hand down Excalibur ect.  but I don't see any new wizards to stand beside him and create a new White Council. 
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mira

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2021, 01:55:26 PM »
I hope to see him go out in a blaze of glory, but years ago I had a prediction that I really hope doesn't happen.  My prediction was that he'd be shackled with the thorned manacles that don't allow him to use magic.  He will be beheaded by the Council.  Carlos saying that would happen if he didn't kill Dresden if ordered to makes me think it's more likely.  It would be a way of really getting Harry to declare war on the Council (and be emotional for the fans).

They'd have to catch Eb first before they put him in any thorned manacles, I don't see Eb submitting quietly to any of that. I think when Eb wakes up from surgery and finds out what the Council did behind his back after Harry put it on the line to deal with Ethniu, he is going to be very pissed off.  I can see a real split happening, hard to tell whether or not Eb would surrender the Black Staff, but I see him in the next book showing up at the castle telling Harry he quit and is now backing him.  It may take a little longer for Listens to Wind and Rashid, but I see them following suit.
Quote
ah I agree with this.  What really kind of stinks is that there isn't any good replacements for the "new order".  I see the end game is Harry will basically be Merlin, and he will be part of the Round Table, hand down Excalibur ect.  but I don't see any new wizards to stand beside him and create a new White Council. 

Yeah, if Jim follows somewhat the pattern of The Lord of the Rings, like the elves going into the West, the time for wizards will have past with the BAT so it will be a hollow victory of sorts.  I'm not sure where the wizards will go, possibly some part of the Nevernever, and magical talent will simply fade for lack of practice from the world.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2021, 04:50:44 PM »
I can see a real split happening, hard to tell whether or not Eb would surrender the Black Staff, but I see him in the next book showing up at the castle telling Harry he quit and is now backing him.  It may take a little longer for Listens to Wind and Rashid, but I see them following suit.

I can't. He's not going to get over Harry being engaged to Lara.

One of the narrative purposes of that plot arc is probably going to be driving the wedge between Harry and Eb even deeper.

Offline Mira

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2021, 07:05:52 PM »
I can't. He's not going to get over Harry being engaged to Lara.

One of the narrative purposes of that plot arc is probably going to be driving the wedge between Harry and Eb even deeper.

Maybe, maybe not, I don't see the engagement lasting that long, Molly is on the case.  And even if Eb doesn't show up on Harry's doorstep, I don't see him remaining in the Council after this.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2021, 11:12:04 PM »
Maybe, maybe not, I don't see the engagement lasting that long, Molly is on the case.  And even if Eb doesn't show up on Harry's doorstep, I don't see him remaining in the Council after this.

Molly has been directly commanded by Mab to see to all the arrangements for the wedding. About the only thing she can do is leak information but I doubt she'd want to put Harry in danger  in any way so she's got to play it pretty straight.

Offline Mira

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2021, 07:04:46 PM »
Molly has been directly commanded by Mab to see to all the arrangements for the wedding. About the only thing she can do is leak information but I doubt she'd want to put Harry in danger  in any way so she's got to play it pretty straight.

Perhaps, but in the car at the end of the book, she tells Harry when he is ready to act she will be
there for him.  That says to me if there is a way out of it, she is backing her Knight.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2021, 08:28:28 PM »
Perhaps, but in the car at the end of the book, she tells Harry when he is ready to act she will be
there for him.  That says to me if there is a way out of it, she is backing her Knight.
Molly dances to Mab's tune no less than Harry.  This is precisely what happened to Maeve and Molly is not Mab's daughter.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2021, 12:28:30 AM »
Molly dances to Mab's tune no less than Harry.  This is precisely what happened to Maeve and Molly is not Mab's daughter.

Agreed, Molly will help Harry with any plan he or others come up with that doesn't violate her orders. But Mab's order keeps her from being a planner.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2021, 08:06:09 PM »
I'm tempted to label this "time travel shenanigans." In fact, when this particular scene was released several months before Peace Talks came out, I read the description and the term "cornerhounds" and immediately said "Hounds of Tindalos in Dresden?"
When Butters opens up the very next chapter with "Holy crap, Hounds of Tindalos are real?!" It solidified my opinion that time travel would kinda have to be involved in some way, else it'd probably be a different type of Outsider. It feels too much like an obvious clue/reference.
My argument:
1. Justine is not the summoner, because she needs Harry to live long enough to escort her to Demonreach, Nemesis's real goal. It does not suit her plans to try to kill Harry, especially not when she knows exactly how to manipulate him. (Literally just "being a woman asking for help" is enough 99% of the time for Harry). She also does not demonstrate any wizard (or even warlock)-level talent in any previous book. Thus far, the only non-wizard/non-warlock we see using mortal-style magic is Thomas, when he uses the locator spell Harry taught him (offscreen in... White Night, I think), and Butters, when he makes a circle in Dead Beat (I'm excusing all of the single-use magical items he uses in his pseudo-Batman impression, though maybe there's more than a little talent required to make those). My understanding is that you do need legitimate magical talent to summon an Outsider.

2. Time and effort are required to summon one, and even then it is dangerous for the summoner. Harry does a full ritual whenever he does anything of the sort. In Proven Guilty, there's a definite spell that builds energy to summon the Fetches. I don't think Justine had the time, and Eb is onscreen long enough before they show up that I don't think he did it, either.

This leaves the wizards we know are in Chicago, but aren't in that scene: Carlos, Chandler, Listens-to-Wind, Wild Bill, Yoshimo, Martha Liberty, and Cristos. Potential additional summoners (those who have enough power) include: Molly, Mab, Titania, and Sarissa. I don't think the Queens are mortal enough anymore to summon an Outsider, but Molly and Sarissa probably are. Odin and Ferrovax are out for the same reason. The Archive could do it; so could Marcone, I presume, though I find them unlikely.

Based solely on character history, I'm going to eliminate several: Listens-to-Wind, Wild Bill, and Yoshimo. LtW doesn't strike me as the type who'd do business with things that upset the natural order, and Wild Bill and Yoshimo get carried off by Drakul, presumed Dead or Turned.

That leaves us with Carlos, Martha Liberty, Cristos, and Chandler. It's possible that Carlos did it, and there is one interesting potential possibility: Carlos was tracking Harry at the time, and knew where he'd be.

Martha Liberty is a relatively unknown quantity. She's only had a handful of lines in the series, most of them supportive of Harry. She's also an odd one among Wizards: she lives with her descendants.

Cristos is pretty obviously a bad guy, but he also fights pretty hard in Battle Ground. Earth magic, it looked like. It's possible he's a stooge.

No, of the wizards in Chicago during Peace Talks, IF the cornerhounds were indeed summoned, my money is on Chandler being the culprit. We know a handful of things about Hounds of Tindalos that may (or may not) apply to cornerhounds: they are drawn to time travel. Chandler's specialty is messing with time. It may or may not have been intentional, but Steed is the only wizard explicitly stated by Jim to have an affinity for time-related magic, and now we have time-travel-related Outsiders show up.

3. Related to my last point, I think we're left with only two possibilities: A) the cornerhounds were indeed summoned, to kill Harry. My bets are on Chandler being the one responsible, though I concede Justine is possible, just not with any of the skills we can confirm she possesses (meaning it'd be a thus-far unseen ability of hers or Nemesis's). I would imagine those particular types of Outsiders would be the first ones to answer Chandler's summoning, mostly because of the aforementioned affinity with time.

The other possibility is the one I find more likely: B) the cornerhounds are there as a side effect of time travel happening behind the scenes. Either it's a time travelin' Harry on an adventure we'll see detailed in a future book, or it's Chandler. Remember, we have no idea what happens to Steed when Drakul tosses him through a portal. He may have used time travel magic to escape, or that might have been what Drakul did to him in the first place. Based on Odin's explanation of time travel (and the ripples on the past) during Cold Days, it's possible that someone bending the laws of time a few hours after the attack (during the Drakul fight) might have an impact several hours earlier, so I think it's possible that the cornerhounds showed up earlier due to such a ripple effect.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2021, 12:59:58 AM »
I liked everything but the fetches.  It took no time at all in the bathroom.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2021, 03:05:39 PM »
I liked everything but the fetches.  It took no time at all in the bathroom.
I read a theory that some were summoned, and some were sent directly. Meaning one of the Queens ordered it. The summoning that Harry detects and misses with his Play-Doh web was a summoning; the movie theater fetches and the bathroom attack were Sent instead. I don't recall which one the Scarecrow at the garage was, but my money is Sent, considering that was Eldest.
I do hope that any time travel stories involve us unraveling the many, many, many questions still lingering about Proven Guilty. My WAG is that a future time travel story will involve Harry going back to that time to make sure Molly becomes Harry's apprentice (and eventually the Winter Lady).

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2021, 07:16:35 PM »
There was no ritual other than Harry's in PG and only two people could have summoned or sent the fetches. 

The most obvious candidate for summoning the Corner Hounds is some Harry look a like. The attack doesn't make sense in the context of the book. It's a one off. And the attackers are very specific in the lore.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2021, 10:25:54 PM »
Opening the field to time travel shenanigans (which should be done, these are time-travel specific Outsiders), you can't really narrow down the suspects to just the list of characters we saw in PG.  Time travel allows it to be anyone that fits the magical prowess criteria.  People like Cowl and Kumori are fair candidates for our future time travel book occurring behind the scenes of our other case file books.

With that in mind, there's no reason to contort ourselves into knots trying to shoehorn in a PG character as the summoner.  We don't yet have the summoner's motivation in order to summon cornerhounds nor proof of its intended target.
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