Author Topic: Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders  (Read 2448 times)

Offline groinkick

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Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders
« on: August 24, 2021, 03:19:17 AM »
ok so from what Jim has said, the Outsiders hate reality because it's noisy.  But the Outsiders serve the Old Ones who used to rule reality before being cast out.  So it seems like the Outsiders are not actually connected to the Old Ones but serve them for some reason.  Am I getting this right?  Here is what I got from the Dresden Files Fandom:

"The Old Ones are an ancient race of demons or gods. They once ruled the mortal world, but were later cast out and locked away from reality.[2] Being primal spiritual entities, they cannot ever truly be destroyed. Not all are Outside, however; some, like the one known as the Sleeper, are on Earth, but imprisoned and entombed.[3]

Even today, they can be still active, feeding on psychic energy, primarily the fear and awareness of them present in humanity.[3] For that reason, the Venatori seek to wipe out knowledge, and thus influence, of the Old Ones in the Oblivion War.[4] The existence of the Old Ones is also one of the last things wizard apprentices learn about in a traditional apprenticeship.[3]

The Outsiders act as their servants and foot soldiers.[2]

The only known Old One so far is the Lord of the Slowest Terror."


So I'm wondering what the relationship is between them.  I mean the Old Ones appear to be from the Inside, so why would they be allied with Outsiders?  Or are the Outsiders, and Old Ones originally from the Inside until they were cast out, making them the original insiders?
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2021, 03:37:20 AM »
Are the Old Ones and Outsiders actually different?  I was thinking they were like the noble class version of Outsiders.  Some of this may be purposefully inconsistent for secret keeping purposes, too.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2021, 01:43:20 PM »
Are the Old Ones and Outsiders actually different?  I was thinking they were like the noble class version of Outsiders.  Some of this may be purposefully inconsistent for secret keeping purposes, too.

I think the lines get blurred..  If I remember correctly in C.I. it was about the Old Ones, but no mention of Outsiders, and I think Harry would have named them as that, if they were.  They might be allies though.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2021, 03:57:08 PM »
In the flashback in GS, when Harry told the Walker this isn't his world, it replied that it once was and will soon be again.

I think the difference between the outsiders and the Old Ones who were kicked Outside at the moment of creation (presumably by TWG) is one of stature, not separate factions where one works for the other. The Old Ones rule, the Outsiders serve, but they're the same overall pantheon.

Part of the Outsider agenda is presumably rescuing / waking the rest of their rulership caste like the Sleeper.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2021, 11:36:49 PM »
So to be clear, Old Ones are apparently Outsiders. They both originate from Outside and seem to share the same characteristics and work together. The Old Ones do appear to be a more powerful type of Outsider, equivalent to a god. They can do things that so far we've only seen powerful gods, and TWG do - i.e. create holy ground (see the Sleeper in Cold Case).

The ideas Jim has drawn from are fairly clear - and you only have to go back to older interviews to see the inspiration. Lovecraft, Buffy, Chronicles of Amber, Babylon 5, Hellboy, Warhammer, Warcraft, and Dungeons and Dragons, to name a few. Each of these contain a version of Old One and Outsider type beings. Jim has even said things like Lovecraft being killed because he was on to something, and "Outsiders are more the Hellboy fangs and tentacles crowd". He has read and watched and played in all those universes so it's no wonder he's built his version out of them, and others too.

The story goes, at least from what bits of information we have, that the Outsiders (including the Old Ones) existed before Creation. Then TWG made Creation and told them all to stay out, and perhaps at that point they couldn't enter (or more likely, the Angels were the original guards). But then TWG gave mortals free will and allowed them to invite the Outsiders in if they chose to (although how mortals learned of them in the first place is a mystery). They did invite enough in eventually (sometime in early human history - likely pre-history) and the Old Ones came in and ruled Earth. Obviously, a very bad thing and I imagine it made the Old Ones and the Outsiders very powerful. Why they didn't destroy Creation back then is a bit of a mystery...but often these beings in the stories that inspired Jim like to "play with their food" so to speak - they like to torture and ruin everything first before unmaking everything. Which give heroes enough time to defeat them in many stories. Anyway, I suspect the time Outsiders ruled will be in a fiction pre-historical era where there was both cavemen and the advanced civilisations of Atlantis and Hyperborea type of thing. We know Atlantis exists in the Dresden Files as Maeve refers to it's destruction in Cold Days.

Anyway, the Old Ones were eventually defeated locked up in prisons in reality, although some may have been cast out. We don't know enough about that time to be sure. Presumably star born helped with this, and it all seems to do with the Cycle (a loop of events that includes the 666 year conjunction that creates star born and some other event where the balance of power is reset and/or the Outsiders get a good chance to come in). Some call it the Game.

Just to note Groinkick - while I appreciate the work of the Dresden Files Fandom wiki team, that wiki is a bit out of date and full of speculation unfortunately rather than just the facts of the series. It's a bit unreliable. Good for an overview but not as a source. They are correct mostly about the Old Ones...but it's not the same as the Oblivion War (according to Jim - despite some theories to the contrary). Until we get a ruling it's really just speculation.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2021, 12:01:32 AM »
Cutting through some speculation with an alternative idea. The "Old Ones" might just be the proto gods and primordials we know of legend that aren't welcome here anymore.
If the idea the lord of slowest terror is Cronus is accurate, then they are simply some of the earlier god's who didn't agree with the new status quo. Beings tossed out, destroyed but not forgotten, ect. one possibility I wouldn't rule out is in the scale of existence to non existence, some things in the Necro territory exist Outside. Like... where a God would go to die. Indeed, the layers of the afterlife in the NN insulate such things from going into non-existence. impowering the closest layer of outside existence, things that used to exist. One thing we've seen in every level of spiritual being, from angels to ghosts all the way down to wizards, is if you don't play by certain cosmic rules, it invariably twists your nature.
These things could be beings twisted by simply trying to come back when they shouldn't.
Old Ones, could be quite literal, Old Gods.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2021, 06:21:39 AM »
That's certainly possible Sibelis. I don't think we have a ruling either way but I don't think we can comprehensively rule it out either.

I wouldn't be mad if that was the reveal either. I would be a little curious as Jim has seemingly created a strong distinction between Inside beings and Outsiders. But maybe he has a crucial piece of information that makes it work.

I think we'd need to find more evidence of their old identities to really make the theory substantial. I've seen your thoughts on Nemesis but I think you need more than just that. You'd need to find stronger links between the Old Ones/Old Gods and defeated deities.

A slight whole in this theory is that plenty of gods who have been defeated are not dead but "sleeping" or wrestling or imprisoned. Food for thought.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2021, 06:46:27 AM »
Maybe the Old Ones are all Starborn, and that's the reason the Outsiders are their foot soldiers.  Just as Lash told Harry he can wield power over them, maybe the Old Ones do it on a much larger scale.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2021, 10:26:57 AM »
Wow that would be a dark twist. I kinda like it.

Maybe even, they are the stars that give birth to star born. I remember something about this in Lovecraft. I think it was the Mountains of Madness.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2021, 01:45:58 PM »
That's certainly possible Sibelis. I don't think we have a ruling either way but I don't think we can comprehensively rule it out either.

I wouldn't be mad if that was the reveal either. I would be a little curious as Jim has seemingly created a strong distinction between Inside beings and Outsiders. But maybe he has a crucial piece of information that makes it work.
has he? I think he's dropped numerous hints the two are interconnected deeper than we know. Especially between Thomas, the WCVs and various levels of deity up to angelic. The hinted origins in Greek mythology with his soul gaze and it's mirror apparent to the outside,  the possible connections of their houses to the children of Ares and Aphrodite, being 'halfborn', ect.
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I think we'd need to find more evidence of their old identities to really make the theory substantial. I've seen your thoughts on Nemesis but I think you need more than just that. You'd need to find stronger links between the Old Ones/Old Gods and defeated deities.
ahh you've seen me discuss it, but have you delved into my original thread in the reference section? I've woven the same threads through many different theories. Things that prove they existed, things that show what happened to them, some things that have actually started to come to pass in BG, things predicted entirely on a nemesis connection.(the walker's subverting and being connected to the KotC "elements")
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A slight whole in this theory is that plenty of gods who have been defeated are not dead but "sleeping" or wrestling or imprisoned. Food for thought.
that one has been heavily discussed,(coincidentally it has alot to do with my ideas on balance of order vs chaos in the DF, think of the black dot in the white part of the Ying-yang symbol) and I'm not sure why it'd be a hole? Just pulling on the generic Lovecraft connection, some were defeated, some left, some stayed, some slumber and some rule as Gods. All in one mythos.
Though... If'n you wanna get into my thoughts on it. MW IS demon reach, and the sleepers are what's manifesting at the outer gates, which is a proverbial manifestation of what is basically the balance of power between MW, and the willpower of all the things that she's eaten or represents. Crazy right?
I think, all these various pantheons or things have taken one form of non existence or another and attempt to cross what is the original veil to reality. The sleepers dream, and in dreaming create a shared bubble from where they try to penetrate reality and wake themselves. The walker's I think, were sacrifices on the stone table, giving them no essence or identity inside reality but what they can steal from it. Then we get into the things that have been destroyed,(Cronus probably, the phrasing "Time itself moves against us" makes me think so, perhaps time itself is Cronus slowly reconstituting and what we're experiencing is the slow crawl of his vast power?) or locked away in other forms in mythos and beyond that into things that have never been part of realities bubble and don't like reality obstructing their non existence.
Inside the DF Harry says most people think the outsiders all work together and have the same goal. I think it's far more likely they work together for similar goals all hoping to come out on top.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 01:48:19 PM by The_Sibelis »

Offline Kindler

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Re: Kind of confused about Old Ones and Outsiders
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2021, 04:19:41 PM »
Anyway, the Old Ones were eventually defeated locked up in prisons in reality, although some may have been cast out. We don't know enough about that time to be sure. Presumably star born helped with this, and it all seems to do with the Cycle (a loop of events that includes the 666 year conjunction that creates star born and some other event where the balance of power is reset and/or the Outsiders get a good chance to come in). Some call it the Game.
I'm not sure if we have a firm year for the Dresden Files, but 666ish years before DF gives us a bunch of really, really important events.
1. The Renaissance kicks off; Dante's Divine Comedy, Botticelli, etc.
2. The Black Death wipes out anywhere from 50-200 million people, upwards of 1/4 of the world's population (which sounds awfully apocalyptic, and I'm pretty sure Nicodemus was involved; it could very well have been hijacked from Outsiders).
3. Probably not relevant right now, but this is around the time the Aztec empire really started (it's around this point that one of the main city-states, Tenochtitln, was established; it's unclear when exactly it was founded, but 1325 is often the cited date). Basically, this is around the time that we start having a clearer picture of what the various Mexica city-states and civilizations were doing. Expansion, war, sacrifice, etc. I don't know how relevant this might be in the future, because the only thing close to the Aztec we've seen in the series are Kukulcan and the Yucatan after they were hijacked by the Red Court.
4. The Hundred Years War kicks off. Joan of Arc isn't around until much later (1412 is her birth year, so she's likely not a Starborn, though it wouldn't shock me in the least if she was a Knight).
5. Chaucer basically decides that English is a good enough language to write in. This sounds like less of a big deal, but The Canterbury Tales in particular basically established Middle English as a legitimate literary language, which kind of shunted aside Italian, French, and Latin. Fun fact: Chaucer pretty much created 2000+ words. Shakespeare only managed about 1,700. Suck on that, Bill.
6. 1376: The Bible is translated into English. Huge, HUGE deal. John Wycliffe almost certainly did most of this himself, and it's almost 100% that he personally translated John, Mark, Luke, and Matthew, but it's possible he was responsible for translating the entire New Testament. The King James translation doesn't come for 230ish years. The main point here is that Wycliffe helped set the stage for Protestantism in the 16th century.
7. Around this time (137...8? 1379?) you have The Great Schism, and two rival Bishops both claiming to be the Pope. This lasts until somewhere around 1417, I think (I'm a medieval guy, and most of my interest ends around the Magna Carta, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong here).
8. Late, may or may not be relevant at all, but Tamerlane initiates the last Mongol Conquest in 1398ish. A Sunni Islamic culture, this was pretty much the last of the Nomadic Eurasian Steppe empires (the Timurids). For those wondering, the Empire included Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey (parts), some parts of India, Central Asia, etc.
I know it's easy to look at any century and say "Hey, this was a period of upheaval!" That said, the 1300's really WERE a period of TREMENDOUS worldwide change. The Black Death, the initial translation of the Bible, and yes, Chaucer legitimizing English as a literary language are all really, really important.
The Black Death didn't quite kill Feudalism, but it sowed the seeds of doubt among the peasantry and is often credited with helping that process along. In fact, one of the results of the Black Death was Parliament passing a LOT of laws mandating wage freezes, which helped cause a big Peasant Revolt in the 1380s (also helped that taxes kept  going up to fund the Hundred Years War's various ongoing conflicts. People really hate taxes. If any of you ever become a dictator, seriously consider cutting taxes. Tax hikes usually don't end well for people in charge, while tax breaks are almost always well-received). Feudalism also ties into my ongoing William the Conqueror-was-a-Starborn-and-Hastings/Stamford-Bridge-was-the-last-time-control-of-the-Outer-Gates-changed-hands theory, since he's the one who really brought it to England with his implementation of vassalage.
Anyway, the point is that the biggest major event 666-ish years ago was the Black Death, and that really, really altered the course of Western Civilization for centuries. I don't know if a Starborn was involved, but I think it's entirely possible.
Also worth noting that Vlad Tepes's father, Vlad II Dracul, is said to be born in 1395. Since we know he's a Starborn, it's unclear exactly how close the 666-year cycle lines up; that could just be an incorrect birth year that was given because he's immortal, but it might not be. Celestial movements may not need to be precise; there may be a length of time during which Starborn can be created, and there are other things that contribute to their status at birth (I like to think there is a birth ritual involved somewhere).