So When Maeve Died, What Happened to.....

[Second Aristh]

I think the Mantle is unalterable.  Meaning that Nemesis couldn't latch on to it.  So It's connection was lost when Maeve died. 

I think that Mab knows that there is too much humanity left in Molly.  She needs Molly to give herself to the Mantle, completely.  A Winter Lady that's conflicted is tolerable, a Winter Queen is not.  The Queen must be laser focused on the mission at hand.  The mission to protect the Out Gates at any cost. 

Remember that Molly loves Harry.  Mab does not.  She see's Harry as a weapon, and my guess is a disposable weapon that isn't supposed to survive past the Stars and Stones.  Molly might not have what it takes to sacrifice Harry the same way Mab will do it without hesitation.

Mantles are alterable, likely not by Nemesis, but snipping off pieces of power and trading them along and melding them with other mantles happens (e.g. doing that is probably the main purpose of the Stone Table in Tir Na Nog).  Taking on the santa mantle let Odin go from his original perception to the one we think of today, but it's a slow process.

I agree that Mab thinks Molly has too much soul to be a proper Winter Queen.  She's too emotional to take up Mab's mantle in her eyes.

[Mira]

I think that Mab knows that there is too much humanity left in Molly.  She needs Molly to give herself to the Mantle, completely.  A Winter Lady that's conflicted is tolerable, a Winter Queen is not.  The Queen must be laser focused on the mission at hand.  The mission to protect the Out Gates at any cost.

Ultimately Mab has to apply that standard to herself, and she failed but got lucky.  What's left of the human mother in her ignored the fact that even before she was infected, Maeve sucked as the Winter Lady.  The human mother left in her allowed her to favor Sarissa over Maeve which created resentment. The human mother left in her failed to see that Maeve was infected until it was too late.  She got lucky, in the end Maeve/Nemesis failed to pull it off.

[Arjan]

Mantles are alterable, likely not by Nemesis, but snipping off pieces of power and trading them along and melding them with other mantles happens (e.g. doing that is probably the main purpose of the Stone Table in Tir Na Nog).  Taking on the santa mantle let Odin go from his original perception to the one we think of today, but it's a slow process.

I agree that Mab thinks Molly has too much soul to be a proper Winter Queen.  She's too emotional to take up Mab's mantle in her eyes.

Mab might think so but that does not make I true. I think https://www.jim-butcher.com/the-good-people shows other roads are possible.

[Mira]

Mab might think so but that does not make I true. I think https://www.jim-butcher.com/the-good-people shows other roads are possible.

Yup, thanks for reminding us of the other Christmas story, too bad it wasn't included with Christmas Eve at the end of Battle Ground.  But here Molly proves that she can be as tough and cold as Mab would wish, but at the same time do some good and have a little fun.    But then Molly is young and time has yet to make her bitter, it could be she is what Mab should be not what she is.  Winter is cold and cruel, true, but also it makes rebirth possible.

[TrueMonk]

I wonder what happens if both lady and queen dies. It seems odd that it would be worse for someone random to become queen that Molly.

[Mira]

I wonder what happens if both lady and queen dies. It seems odd that it would be worse for someone random to become queen that Molly.

Good question because if Mab had died and Harry obeyed her orders to kill Molly that is exactly the situation Winter would find itself in.  I suppose Lea could take over or Mother Winter come out of retirement, but that doesn't feel right.

[Arjan]

Good question because if Mab had died and Harry obeyed her orders to kill Molly that is exactly the situation Winter would find itself in.  I suppose Lea could take over or Mother Winter come out of retirement, but that doesn't feel right.

Whatever Jim wants but Mab knows.

The Ladies mantle is going to look for someone and the queen’s mantle will do the same or return to Mother Winter to be handled to someone.

[Mira]

Whatever Jim wants but Mab knows.

The Ladies mantle is going to look for someone and the queen’s mantle will do the same or return to Mother Winter to be handled to someone.

Yeah, but there is an old saying, "jumping from the frying pan into the fire..."

[Arjan]

Yeah, but there is an old saying, "jumping from the frying pan into the fire..."

And Harry missed the opportunity to ask that question. He probably would not get a clear answer but he was entirely justified to ask at that moment.

[Mira]

And Harry missed the opportunity to ask that question. He probably would not get a clear answer but he was entirely justified to ask at that moment.

Yup, but he also had more pressing problems at the moment.

[Kindler]

But was she actually possessed?  Infected and insane but possessed?  I still think that is unclear and that is why Mab wanted Molly killed if something happened to her.  That is the only thing that makes sense..  Because while Molly might not run the Winter Court as Mab would, she has demonstrated that she'd do her part to protect it and the rest of the world and would with Harry's help.

What makes me wonder about  Mab's insistence that Harry off Molly if Mab bites it in the fight with Ethniu is... why would Molly be worse than whoever comes next? The reasoning she gives is basically "Molly's doing a good job as Lady, but she's not ready to be Queen." Okay, so... some rando will get the Mantle and do a better job, then? And there'll be a whole new Lady to contend with, too?
I know Mab probably planned for such a contingency and made sure a good Vessel for Molly's current mantle would be on standby, but you simply CANNOT plan that well in the middle of a pitched battle. Why is Mab so confident Molly would be worse than whoever's next?
The answer is probably that Mab thinks Molly cares too much about mortals (shown in Molly's short story after Christmas Eve), but I find it really odd nonetheless.

[The_Sibelis]

Consider, if the consort kills the monarch it might qualify as a legit coupe. So Mabs really telling Harry to take over her job.

[Kindler]

Consider, if the consort kills the monarch it might qualify as a legit coupe. So Mabs really telling Harry to take over her job.

I don't think that's possible. For one, he can't accept either of the Mantles in question, and those Mantles are critical. Do you mean Mab was telling Harry to become a new Winter monarch? Or that he would advise the next monarch? Because Harry flat out does not know enough to do either of those things. He'd just learned that the Outer Gates actually existed within a year or two of PT/BG.

[Arjan]

Consider, if the consort kills the monarch it might qualify as a legit coupe. So Mabs really telling Harry to take over her job.

Magical sex change included.

[The_Sibelis]

I don't think that's possible. For one, he can't accept either of the Mantles in question, and those Mantles are critical. Do you mean Mab was telling Harry to become a new Winter monarch? Or that he would advise the next monarch? Because Harry flat out does not know enough to do either of those things. He'd just learned that the Outer Gates actually existed within a year or two of PT/BG.

this was actually addressed specifically in Woj on if harry could take the lady/queen mantles since he has the knights. The answer is pretty much Harry's known to break rules.
Knowledge isn't key, disposition is. Harry absolutely has the disposition for it, a tiny grain of sand against a raging sea. Plus, the whole starborn thing is probably an edge Mabs well aware of.