Mab's word play about the White Court

[groinkick]

Alright so just an idea of mine.

Mab said that a marriage was needed between the White Court and Winter to form a strong alliance.  I don't really buy that she needs them, but she also cannot lie.  So here is what I think is going on.  Mab see's Harry himself as a valuable member of Winter.  He's her Knight, and something more (she hints about it).  My guess is some sort of weapon against the Outside.

Anyways she see's Harry as a valuable member of Winter, but knows that she cannot in the mortal world offer much protection to him.  After all, that's what he's for.  He's her weapon in the mortal world.  Harry being kicked out of the Council has made him very vulnerable.  So Mab pushes for the marriage.  This way Harry belongs to a group who can provide the kind of deterrent she can't.  It's not the same as the White Council but by his marriage to Lara if someone outside the White Court attacked him, it could be seen as an attack on the White Court, and most people don't really want that kind of trouble.

So my opinion is that this alliance to strengthen Winter is actually about protecting Harry who as Winter Knight is Winter, so Mab isn't lying.

[Mira]

It could be that you are right, but I think the look that Molly gave Lara after the kracken attack was foreshadowing and not mere dislike.  I think Lara pushed Mab into some kind of bargain and suggesting this was a possible way out of it.

[Second Aristh]

Mab does few things for one reason.  The marriage drives the White Council further away from him (hence closer to Mab), offers Harry protection he just lost, and somewhat wriggles out of a favor from Lara while putting a handle on her.  All at once.

[Mira]

Mab does few things for one reason.  The marriage drives the White Council further away from him (hence closer to Mab), offers Harry protection he just lost, and somewhat wriggles out of a favor from Lara while putting a handle on her.  All at once.

Maybe but I still want to know what that dirty look was about that Harry didn't catch..  I'm willing to
bet that there is a lot rotten in the state of Denmark that is being kept from Harry and Molly isn't at liberty to talk about.

[morriswalters]

I thought it was obvious that Molly was jealous. It was why Mab told Harry to kill her if she(Mab) died. I think the part where the ground turns to frost under Molly's feet as they leave the castle, pretty much is Molly saying to Lara, you bitch you're stealing my man and I'm pissed.

I find this much more interesting.

Mab glanced at me wearily. “You know what it is,” she said, “to sell pieces of your soul so that someone who will never know your name will have another chance at life.”

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 392). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

And this.

“Certain aspects of my power have to do with choices I made when I was mortal,” she said. “There would be . . . compatibility issues. This is part of the task the Knight was designed for.”

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 395). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[Mira]

I thought it was obvious that Molly was jealous. It was why Mab told Harry to kill her if she(Mab) died. I think the part where the ground turns to frost under Molly's feet as they leave the castle, pretty much is Molly saying to Lara, you bitch you're stealing my man and I'm pissed.

Except in that moment Harry was with Murphy and Molly didn't seem jealous of her.  No, I think that Mab and Lara have something cooked up and Molly doesn't like it. 

Yes, I liked those quotes as well, they fit with the conversation Mab had with Harry in Cold Days after Maeve died.  Mab confessing that she was human once and has had to do terrible things for the sake of the world against the outside, and Harry is beginning to understand just what that means.

[Ed0517]

Except in that moment Harry was with Murphy and Molly didn't seem jealous of her.  No, I think that Mab and Lara have something cooked up and Molly doesn't like it. 

Yes, I liked those quotes as well, they fit with the conversation Mab had with Harry in Cold Days after Maeve died.  Mab confessing that she was human once and has had to do terrible things for the sake of the world against the outside, and Harry is beginning to understand just what that means.

Couple of points on Murphy - Molly knows Harry and she have been close since Molly was a kid. It would (and did) wreck Harry to lose her. But... Murphy also talked about wanting someone to grow old with... which cannot be Harry, we know wizards live a long time - at least a couple of centuries for laFortier, Eb, Langtry, and Luccio. That could be a problem waiting to happen. Also, well, Murphy is divorced twice. Not a good track record with men.   So... possible fault lines Molly can see now. And... Molly can be playing the long game. Murphy, even by natural causes, likely had 40 years or so left. Harry had at least a couple centuries.... even if being the Knight gives him no benefit. Molly might have been letting Harry have his fling.... and when Murphy passed... Harry is grieving.  Michael is older, he's likely gone. He's estranged from Carlos. Maybe he could talk to Billy, but.... most likely, he turns to his old dear friend and co-worker Molly....

[Mira]

Couple of points on Murphy - Molly knows Harry and she have been close since Molly was a kid. It would (and did) wreck Harry to lose her. But... Murphy also talked about wanting someone to grow old with... which cannot be Harry, we know wizards live a long time - at least a couple of centuries for laFortier, Eb, Langtry, and Luccio. That could be a problem waiting to happen. Also, well, Murphy is divorced twice. Not a good track record with men.   So... possible fault lines Molly can see now. And... Molly can be playing the long game. Murphy, even by natural causes, likely had 40 years or so left. Harry had at least a couple centuries.... even if being the Knight gives him no benefit. Molly might have been letting Harry have his fling.... and when Murphy passed... Harry is grieving.  Michael is older, he's likely gone. He's estranged from Carlos. Maybe he could talk to Billy, but.... most likely, he turns to his old dear friend and co-worker Molly....

I'd go along with that except Lara appeared to be just as shocked at Mab's proposal as Harry.  No, it was more about Mab lending Harry to Lara to repay a favor..  Remember the last time she did that?

[The_Sibelis]

Yea, I think Murphy had a "rank" in Molly's mind, and she knew she was good for Harry too. Lara has neither thing going for her in Molly's view though. She's an interloper who could steal Harry away for the rest of his expected existence.
Had considered this, it was for "mutual benefit" after all, Mab doesn't need the WCVs for herself, but they'd certainly help fortify Harry's position.
* Although... Mab has a habit of putting Harry in tight spaces with things she believes could be comprised too..

[morriswalters]

Except in that moment Harry was with Murphy and Molly didn't seem jealous of her.  No, I think that Mab and Lara have something cooked up and Molly doesn't like it. 

Yes, I liked those quotes as well, they fit with the conversation Mab had with Harry in Cold Days after Maeve died.  Mab confessing that she was human once and has had to do terrible things for the sake of the world against the outside, and Harry is beginning to understand just what that means.

Familiarity breeds contempt. Murphy had always been there.  Lara is an interloper. And Jim turned Molly into a eunuch.

The quotes are interesting to me because I believe they are some type of foreshadowing. Who was Mab before she was Mab? It got brought up at least twice in Battle Ground.  Once by Mab and once by Korg.

The first suggests that Mab reached for power for many of the same reasons Harry did. To protect someone or some thing.

The second is more obscure and maybe more important.  What choice did she make? She also says that the Winter Knight was created for this. If you have a dirty mind like me, one thing comes to mind.  Lara is her daughter by Raith. That would certainly be a compatibility issue, don't you think? It could explain this.

“Old woman,” Corb taunted. “I remember you as a bawling brat. I remember your pimply face when you rode with the Conqueror. I remember how you wept when Merlin cast you out.” Mab’s face . . . . . . twisted into naked, ugly, absolute rage. Her body became so rigid, so immobile, that it could not possibly have belonged to a living thing. “Tell me,” Corb purred. “If he was yet among the living, do you think he would still love you? Would he be so proud of what you’ve become?”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (pp. 278-279). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

The longer I read the more convinced I become that this has all happened before.

[Mira]

The second is more obscure and maybe more important.  What choice did she make? She also says that the Winter Knight was created for this. If you have a dirty mind like me, one thing comes to mind.  Lara is her daughter by Raith. That would certainly be a compatibility issue, don't you think? It could explain this.
Quote

    “Old woman,” Corb taunted. “I remember you as a bawling brat. I remember your pimply face when you rode with the Conqueror. I remember how you wept when Merlin cast you out.” Mab’s face . . . . . . twisted into naked, ugly, absolute rage. Her body became so rigid, so immobile, that it could not possibly have belonged to a living thing. “Tell me,” Corb purred. “If he was yet among the living, do you think he would still love you? Would he be so proud of what you’ve become?”

    Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (pp. 278-279). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

The longer I read the more convinced I become that this has all happened before.

History tends to repeat itself, but I don't know if I'd such a leap as to say that Lara is Mab's daughter.  Are you saying that Lord Raith was at one time William the Conqueror?

[Ed0517]

I'd go along with that except Lara appeared to be just as shocked at Mab's proposal as Harry.  No, it was more about Mab lending Harry to Lara to repay a favor..  Remember the last time she did that?

Oh, I do agree that Lara seemed shocked to be gifted Harry. But she has mentioned a few times to Harry she could use a partner she respects (not loves) and she has wondered what it would be like to "throw down" with Harry, I think she called it. And Molly may be afraid if they have to be together and act a couple.. they may BECOME one.

[The_Sibelis]

History tends to repeat itself, but I don't know if I'd such a leap as to say that Lara is Mab's daughter.  Are you saying that Lord Raith was at one time William the Conqueror?

mwahaha the first thing I thought of when talking to Griff and he mentioned Oizys and moros was Harry is technically extended family to her. That'd make 3 siblings for this era too.

[morriswalters]

History tends to repeat itself, but I don't know if I'd such a leap as to say that Lara is Mab's daughter.  Are you saying that Lord Raith was at one time William the Conqueror?

I'm not saying anything.  I'm looking for types of things that would make a relationship between Lara and Mab incompatible because of some choice made by Mab before she was Mab. That was one.

[Basil]

Mab does few things for one reason.  The marriage drives the White Council further away from him (hence closer to Mab), offers Harry protection he just lost, and somewhat wriggles out of a favor from Lara while putting a handle on her.  All at once.

This is right.  And, I might add, also teaches Molly a lesson that she needs to learn. 

Oh, I do agree that Lara seemed shocked to be gifted Harry. But she has mentioned a few times to Harry she could use a partner she respects (not loves) and she has wondered what it would be like to "throw down" with Harry, I think she called it. And Molly may be afraid if they have to be together and act a couple.. they may BECOME one.

I think it's an interesting question whether Lara respects, fears or might actually have a thing for Harry.  I'm not sure that Lara is capable of love -- it is, of course, difficult to love one's food and real love is an anathema to the White Court.  Lara might be capable of affection, she certainly has some f-ed up motherly/sisterly affection for Thomas.  She might be able to have affection for Harry.  (Desire of course, is easy for Lara).   

Personally, I think Lara might actually have a thing for Harry.  Harry is not quite the white-knighting bumbling nerd-avatar that he once was.  I think he might start resembling Id-Harry more and more often, and Id-Harry is definitely someone Lara would want to hang out with. 

Yea, I think Murphy had a "rank" in Molly's mind, and she knew she was good for Harry too. Lara has neither thing going for her in Molly's view though. She's an interloper who could steal Harry away for the rest of his expected existence.
Had considered this, it was for "mutual benefit" after all, Mab doesn't need the WCVs for herself, but they'd certainly help fortify Harry's position.
* Although... Mab has a habit of putting Harry in tight spaces with things she believes could be comprised too..

I agree.  Murphy definitely had "rank" on Molly here.  If they were guys, I'd say this was a form of "Bros before Hos."  Molly would never move on Harry unless Murphy was out of the picture for good.  The fact that she died defending Harry makes this harder, but Molly at least has the benefit of knowing that she will not be Harry's rebound girl.  In this way, Mab may have done Molly a solid, in the end. 

Of course, she'll have to work around the Winter Lady thing, but there is one obvious solution to that problem.... removing Mab.  Molly knows how to do it -- everyone on Demonreach the day that Lilly and Maeve died can work it out.