Author Topic: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?  (Read 4763 times)

Offline Ed0517

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Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« on: August 06, 2021, 06:23:03 AM »
Not his style, but.... the White Council has not tried to run him out of Demonreach - maybe that is not a WC job. Who had it before Harry?
 

Between that and the Eye, he has some serious power. Baron Marcone showed a human can sign. He needs two members to sign for him - Mab and Vadderung would likely step up.

Yes, he is the Winter Knight, but that is an AGENT of the Court, not PART of it. He not Sidhe, he is still human (mostly)

Then whacking him might be seen as an act of war against a signatory nation... 

Offline Mira

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2021, 10:57:31 AM »

 He might as Wizard of Chicago, just to needle Marcone who'd then have to come out into the open and admit he is a Denarian.

Offline Basil

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2021, 02:47:48 PM »
I think that he could, he could already get two Accords members to vouch for him -- potentially more.  I think River Shoulders said they would join the Accords.

(Note: I don't think that Mab would sign for him, it would restrict her Knight too much). 

Overall, I think this is an excellent idea and "Wizard of Chicago" has the quality of a title to it.

Offline Mira

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2021, 02:57:26 PM »
I think that he could, he could already get two Accords members to vouch for him -- potentially more.  I think River Shoulders said they would join the Accords.

(Note: I don't think that Mab would sign for him, it would restrict her Knight too much). 

Overall, I think this is an excellent idea and "Wizard of Chicago" has the quality of a title to it.


With the added bonus of not only pissing Marcone off because he considers Chicago his domain plus with the Namshiel coin a wizard... It would also upset the White Council, if Harry wasn't off limits as the Winter Knight, he just might be as a full member of the Accords.

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2021, 08:02:01 PM »
Not his style, but.... the White Council has not tried to run him out of Demonreach - maybe that is not a WC job. Who had it before Harry?
 

Between that and the Eye, he has some serious power. Baron Marcone showed a human can sign. He needs two members to sign for him - Mab and Vadderung would likely step up.

Yes, he is the Winter Knight, but that is an AGENT of the Court, not PART of it. He not Sidhe, he is still human (mostly)

Then whacking him might be seen as an act of war against a signatory nation...

We don't know, and we don't know before that, but before that was Kemmler.

I think the analog of 7 Laws of Magic and 7 Senior Council members isn't by chance or mystic numeracy- I think originally it was the 7 roles associated with maintaining the Laws. Maybe mantles- evidence Listens-to-Wind's shapechanging- maybe not.

The Gatekeeper is probably responsible for the Outer Gates, the Blackstaff for killing with magic, for instance.

I tend to think the Warden was the original, and some Warden down the line founded the wardens as assistants/potential replacements. Part of the Merlin wanting Harry off the Council may be because if the Warden, he's in charge, not Luccio.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2021, 11:23:38 PM »
My stab at seven titles of Merlin Emrys that have been disseminated.
  • Blackstaff - 1st Law - Eb kills those at Casaverde.
  • Beastmaster - 2nd Law - Listens uses incredible shifting magic.
  • Mindkeeper - 3rd Law - Langtry uses incredible mind magic in Turn Coat.
  • Warden - 4th Law - Warden can command inmates on work release.
  • Lifeguard - 5th Law -
  • Timelord - 6th Law -
  • Gatekeeper - 7th Law - Rashid oversees the Gates.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2021, 01:55:37 AM »
Here's what I would think about.  I could see Jim making Harry a signatory to the accords, a recognized power in his own right.  The thing is, Jim wants to keep Harry as a medium sized fish, not a big fish.  So, if Harry picks up this type of power, it has to be balanced; probably by added responsibility to weigh him down, and of course, added danger.  Being one person, Harry doesn't have Valkyries, Hugin and Muninn  or Einherjar he can call on to do his dirty work.  Harry only has Toot and company he can order around.  I would wonder how this might gimp him.   
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2021, 02:35:57 AM »
My stab at seven titles of Merlin Emrys that have been disseminated.
  • Blackstaff - 1st Law - Eb kills those at Casaverde.
  • Beastmaster - 2nd Law - Listens uses incredible shifting magic.
  • Mindkeeper - 3rd Law - Langtry uses incredible mind magic in Turn Coat.
  • Warden - 4th Law - Warden can command inmates on work release.
  • Lifeguard - 5th Law -
  • Timelord - 6th Law -
  • Gatekeeper - 7th Law - Rashid oversees the Gates.
Most of that stacks up, I think. But I seem to remember Jim saying the Merlin was actually using advanced air magic to do his communication spell in Turn Coat. Because using mind magic would presumably break the laws of magic.

I would probably choose Langtry is the Time Lord, who governs the 6th law. So for me it would be:
  • Blackstaff - 1st Law (Murder) - Eb kills those at Casaverde.
  • Beastmaster - 2nd Law (Polymorphing) - Listens uses incredible shifting magic.
  • Mindkeeper - 3rd Law (Mind Invasion) - La Fortier's specialty was illusions. As he is dead, Cristos goes here despite being an Earth mage.
  • Warden - 4th Law (Enthrallment) - Warden can command inmates on work release. Previously Simon perhaps, depending on his speciality and possibly as a candidate for being a Warden after Kemmler. Maybe Ancient Mai takes this role being the most skilled enchanter on the Council.
  • Lifeguard - 5th Law (Necromancy) - Martha Liberty's use of the loa and spirits
  • Timelord - 6th Law  (Time Travel) - The OG Merlin used TT to create Demonreach, maybe that knowledge is part of being the Merlin now (like Presidential "Eyes Only")
  • Gatekeeper - 7th Law (Gateing) - Rashid oversees the Gates.

I think though, all things considered, that only the Gatekeeper (Rashid) and the Merlin (Langtry) are in the roles of old. At one point there was only the OG Merlin Emrys doing it all. The Blackstaff came after he left/died because the Council's enemies were exploiting their limitations. Which I originally took to mean using mortals to attack the Council...but perhaps also meaning using things like Time Travel, Necromancy (like in Dead Beat where the Council couldn't have got close enough to the Darkhallow without using Necromancy to shield themselves), being unable to contend with mind mages and enthralments and transmogrifiers (polymorphers), and of course course whatever advantage the Outside provides. I wouldn't at all be surprised to learn that the Gatekeeper has to break the 7th Law in order to do his job. Maybe not all the time, but probably a lot of the time.

So perhaps the OG Merlin appointed his Council leaders based on their specialty against the Seven Laws. On thinking about it some more, it would have made more sense for there to be 13 Senior Council members, considering that's the maximum that can be used in a spell. So it seems that it's very deliberate that there is only 7. Which is a point in favor of it being in related to the Laws of Magic.

We don't know, and we don't know before that, but before that was Kemmler.

I tend to think the Warden was the original, and some Warden down the line founded the wardens as assistants/potential replacements. Part of the Merlin wanting Harry off the Council may be because if the Warden, he's in charge, not Luccio.
Great theory btw.

Jim knows who the two previous two are. I am pretty sure it's Simon and either Justin or Margaret Le Fay. Considering all three are "dead" it's hard to get any more information at this stage. Being random wizards doesn't feel right...and I can't really see it being anyone we've met like McCoy or Rashid. We know it isn't any of the Senior Council per Jim as that would set the others upon whoever took up the mantle. So that only really leaves significant wizards in the last century that are no longer hanging around i.e. dead, missing, or keeping a low profile.

I agree though that the original Warden was just Merlin, and then the concept of the Wardens grew out of that.

To be honest, I doubt the Council was very big originally. Maybe less than a hundred wizards globally. Maybe not even twenty who signed on. I can imagine there would have been plenty of resistance too. But by being organised and resourceful, I suspect Merlin overcame significant adversaries (and the fact he himself was a complete badass). So he effectively conquered the wizarding world. In many ways not all that different to Voldemort or Grindelwald. Just happened to be to write the history books (or his supporters did), and so comes off as the good guy. Any bastard who conquers their neighbours to form a larger group is not going to be all that "good". Look at the formation of any country from smaller states and cities. It's normally fairly bloody yet often the conqueror comes off as a hero of sorts. Sure, people band together to take on big threats. I don't doubt that's often the case - and indeed likely the case in the Dresden Files. But it doesn't mean they didn't end up absorbing some less-than-willing elements through might.

To the OP - Definitely could see Dresden signing on...although he hardly needs to as Winter Knight, already being of Winter. Then again, Kringle is a vassal of Winter yet Vadderung is not so perhaps it might work something like that. A matter of what hat Harry is wearing (despite almost never wearing hats). He would need the signing of two current members of the Accords. I could see Vadderung signing off, and perhaps Molly or Mab (unless they don't want him to...). Another possibility is River Shoulders should he become and Accords member, or the Archive, or even Lara. Even Marcone might agree for a deal, but I can't see Harry asking. I suspect the main reason Dresden would sign on is to get the protections for Chicago both from external threats and internal threats. As a secondary reason, to protect himself from the White Council (and to a lesser extent, Mab). The real question is when he would do it. Now (as in Twelve Months)? Or perhaps after some sort of ascension or power-up?

Offline groinkick

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2021, 03:36:05 AM »
Not his style, but.... the White Council has not tried to run him out of Demonreach - maybe that is not a WC job. Who had it before Harry?
 

Between that and the Eye, he has some serious power. Baron Marcone showed a human can sign. He needs two members to sign for him - Mab and Vadderung would likely step up.

Yes, he is the Winter Knight, but that is an AGENT of the Court, not PART of it. He not Sidhe, he is still human (mostly)

Then whacking him might be seen as an act of war against a signatory nation...

I think Jim said that anyone can become a member but it comes with risks.  Like you have to be able to actually back stuff up.  Didn't Harry in the book talk about it as well?  I thought he mentioned like a shapeshifter being a signatory or something like that.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2021, 03:40:09 AM »
My stab at seven titles of Merlin Emrys that have been disseminated.
  • Blackstaff - 1st Law - Eb kills those at Casaverde.
  • Beastmaster - 2nd Law - Listens uses incredible shifting magic.
  • Mindkeeper - 3rd Law - Langtry uses incredible mind magic in Turn Coat.
  • Warden - 4th Law - Warden can command inmates on work release.
  • Lifeguard - 5th Law -
  • Timelord - 6th Law -
  • Gatekeeper - 7th Law - Rashid oversees the Gates.

Just my opinion but the 7 laws aren't related to the 7 Members.  I think the 7 members are because the number 7 is significant in some beliefs.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Basil

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2021, 04:06:34 AM »
Just my opinion but the 7 laws aren't related to the 7 Members.  I think the 7 members are because the number 7 is significant in some beliefs.

I think it may have been 7 Senior Council members, one with some kind of role for each law.  But for the life of me, I can't really see how it fits together.

The Gatekeeper's role and connection to a law seems obvious, but what is the law connected to "The Warden"?  It can't be just black magic -- only one (arguably two, now) prisoner even qualifies as human.  Black magic is only a human relevant concept. 

In any event, I doubt that it's actually worked out that way for maybe a millennium even if there was once a linkage.   The Council just doesn't function as intended and does not seem to be fit for purpose anymore.   

I mean, Kemmler apparently had Harry's job as The Warden once upon a time.  How much more evidence do we need that the Council is completely FUBAR. 

Offline groinkick

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2021, 04:13:38 AM »
I think it may have been 7 Senior Council members, one with some kind of role for each law.  But for the life of me, I can't really see how it fits together.

The Gatekeeper's role and connection to a law seems obvious, but what is the law connected to "The Warden"?  It can't be just black magic -- only one (arguably two, now) prisoner even qualifies as human.  Black magic is only a human relevant concept. 

In any event, I doubt that it's actually worked out that way for maybe a millennium even if there was once a linkage.   The Council just doesn't function as intended and does not seem to be fit for purpose anymore.   

I mean, Kemmler apparently had Harry's job as The Warden once upon a time.  How much more evidence do we need that the Council is completely FUBAR.

Yeah but Eb had the Blackstaff before being a Senior Council member.  He only took the role of Senior Council member to protect Harry.  Also the Blackstaff can violate all the laws so I don't know how the others members would be in charge of a law. 

I guess there could be some kind of Mantle for each role.  Which means Eb took on a new mantle when becoming the newest member. 
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mira

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2021, 05:32:19 AM »

In answer to your question, Harry already is a member of the Accords. Twice in fact though one may be taken away now.
Skin Game page 206

Quote
"Marcone is not someone to cross lightly," I said.  "Not only that, but he is a member of the Accords."
"I'm not," Nicodemus said.  "Not any longer."
"I am," I said.  "Twice.  As Wizard of the White Council and as the Winter Knight."

I guess now you could change that to as Wizard of Chicago.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2021, 05:43:57 AM »
In answer to your question, Harry already is a member of the Accords. Twice in fact though one may be taken away now.
Skin Game page 206

I guess now you could change that to as Wizard of Chicago.

I think the difference is that a member is someone who belongs to a group while the signatory of the accords would be like Harry being his own group.  I one person member.  Like Marcone.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Could Harry become a signatory to the Accords?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2021, 06:35:46 AM »
I could see where in the first generation after Merlin, there were seven seniors with seven responsibilities. But due to wizards keeping secrets, and unexpected deaths without specific inheritance protocols, and changes in Council rules and practices, the association of one for one was lost.

Thus do we end up with the Blackstaff not on the Senior Council, and the Warden mantle abandoned. There could be other mantles out there that aren't used just like the Warden went unfulfilled for decades or longer.