Author Topic: More foreshadowing?  (Read 7895 times)

Offline LostInTime

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2021, 12:11:22 AM »
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1] Molly looking as though she were strung out on hard drugs with a "fey light" in her eyes.

2] Smiling, happy, older, a little plump surrounded by children..

3] Wearing a grey Warden's cloak, her face scared by battles yet to be fought.

4] Basically a happy young woman, but perhaps a bit more secure..

5] At a desk working...

6]  The last one looked like Molly, but wasn't, but someone all together evil;
My crazy headcannon is that these are all future version of Molly that we have or will see.
1) Molly the Ragged Lady
2) Molly after Harry has destroyed the Fae Courts and freed her from the fae mantle.
3) Warden Molly in Mirror Mirror
4) We've already seen this one. It was Molly as Harry's apprentice.
5) When Harry summons Molly in PT, she's in business attire.
6) Queen Molly in vengeance mode.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2021, 02:57:37 AM »
For the possible futures, I interpret them as
1]  Winter Lady Molly
2]  Molly that set aside magic
3]  Warden Molly
4]  ? ? ?
5]  ? ? ?
6]  Denarian Molly
Warlock Molly. If it is about possibilities one of them must be that.
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Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2021, 04:15:15 AM »
My crazy headcannon is that these are all future version of Molly that we have or will see.
1) Molly the Ragged Lady
2) Molly after Harry has destroyed the Fae Courts and freed her from the fae mantle.
3) Warden Molly in Mirror Mirror
4) We've already seen this one. It was Molly as Harry's apprentice.
5) When Harry summons Molly in PT, she's in business attire.
6) Queen Molly in vengeance mode.
pretty much mine too. I think that these, plus the seventh current timeline make up the main portion of the TT shenanigans.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2021, 04:17:31 AM »
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   One was an emaciated version of Molly, as
though she’d been starved or strung out on hard
drugs, her eyes aglow with an unpleasant, fey light.
One was her smiling and laughing, older and
comfortably heavier, children surrounding her. A
third faced me in a grey Warden’s cloak, though a
burn scar, almost a brand, marred the roundness
of her left cheek. Still another reflection was Molly
as she appeared now, though more secure, l
laughter dancing in her eyes. Another reflection
showed her at a desk, working. But the last…
   The last reflection of Molly wasn’t the girl. Oh, it
looked like Molly, externally. But the eyes gave it
away. They were flat as a reptile’s, empty. She wore
all black, including a black collar, and her hair had
been dyed to match. Though she looked like Molly,
like a human being, she was neither. She had
become something else entirely, something very,
very bad.
I think it's like the book said. Possibilities. Not necessarily actual branch realities or all things from the prime reality.

I think option one was if didn't get tutored by Harry, and ended up a junkie on the streets with a modest power.

I think option two was her giving up her power line her mom did, and being a vanilla mortal.

I think option three was her getting tutored by someone other than Harry. Luccio or Morgan perhaps.

I agree that option four is the road taken, tutoring under Harry.

Option five is the most nebulous. This could be her walking away from all of it and going to school. Not giving up her power, but not being trained, not getting drawn in, just her doing her thing on her own.

Option six is either her going full dark side, either via black magic, outsider corruption, or maybe even Black Court.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2021, 10:39:52 AM »
I think option 1 is just what it appears to be, foreshadowing the events of Ghost Story. And the last the results had Harry not intervened.

Most of the other options have been foreclosed on.  Molly can never be a Warden now. That ceased when Harry committed suicide. And unless Molly can get free of the mantle children aren't in the picture, or at least children in that context. 

I would like to think that one of them was Molly after the events of the Dresden Files but personally I don't think her story has a happy ending. I seem to remember a WOJ on this.  It's interesting to think that one of the possible options at the time of PG was Molly becoming the Lady.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2021, 01:03:05 PM »
I think it's like the book said. Possibilities. Not necessarily actual branch realities or all things from the prime reality.

I think option three was her getting tutored by someone other than Harry. Luccio or Morgan perhaps.
🤔 even if you don't think they're directly connected to timelines why wouldn't this be the one where Harry teaches her tough lessons and burns her face with his little ball of sunshine?  I think everyone of them isn't just a possible timeline, but a timeline Harry himself would set her down. Especially because of when/why he did the soul gaze. He was literally looking at the possibilities of his own influence or complete lack thereof.

Offline Mira

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2021, 03:21:37 PM »
🤔 even if you don't think they're directly connected to timelines why wouldn't this be the one where Harry teaches her tough lessons and burns her face with his little ball of sunshine?  I think everyone of them isn't just a possible timeline, but a timeline Harry himself would set her down. Especially because of when/why he did the soul gaze. He was literally looking at the possibilities of his own influence or complete lack thereof.

I don't think he was seeing his influence on her..  Or rather knowing Harry did have an influence up until that time for sure, but so did everything else in her life.  Remember at the time of the soul gaze she had no clue of her mother's choices or what her mother was, nor did she have any clue of what the consequences of choices made by a person of talent.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2021, 08:26:33 PM »
🤔 even if you don't think they're directly connected to timelines why wouldn't this be the one where Harry teaches her tough lessons and burns her face with his little ball of sunshine?  I think everyone of them isn't just a possible timeline, but a timeline Harry himself would set her down. Especially because of when/why he did the soul gaze. He was literally looking at the possibilities of his own influence or complete lack thereof.
I look at them as the possibilities of her use of free will, not possibilities that revolve around Harry's free will.

It might look like it sometimes, but her life and fate doesn't and shouldn't revolve around Harry. I'd prefer to think her destiny was decided by her and not him.

In that moment, he could see what she could choose to do for herself.
  • She could choose to run, to hide from the Council. She'd end up on her own on the street, desperate.
  • She could go to the Council, give up her power, and live as a mortal revolving around family. A longshot, but possible.
  • She could go to the Council, and let someone other than Harry (who would be harsher in discipline) train her.
  • She could train with Harry.
  • So many options for this one. It's too vague.
    • Gives up power but leaves her family to go to school and have a career.
    • Keeps power and aligns herself with Lara as an aide a la Justine.
    • Gets tutored by Peabody and becomes a bureaucromancer.
    • Ends up the Winter Lady and has to do a lot of paperwork.
  • Also many options.
    • She gets a coin.
    • She gets possessed by Corpsetaker.
    • She gets tutored under Peabody and becomes an evil bureaucromancer.
    • She goes rogue and ends up as Cowl's apprentice.
    • She goes rogue and ends up possessed by Beside or another Outsider.
    • She gets turned into a Red Court vampire.
    • She gets turned into a Black Court vampire.
    • Some combination of these.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2021, 09:19:00 PM »
I look at them as the possibilities of her use of free will, not possibilities that revolve around Harry's free will.

It might look like it sometimes, but her life and fate doesn't and shouldn't revolve around Harry.
of course it does, he's the protagonist 🤣
Seriously though, Molly isn't an adult paving her own way, she has agency sure and no idea what to do with it. she's looking for a guide as it is, someone to show her an example of what she can do next. Harry is it, on top of the extraordinary amount of influence he has in everyone around him. An with Harry literally making the next choices on how things will play out, giving her specific options to run with. Some of those fates more heavily influenced of course. But the cheek scar has long been fabled about. (Recently feeling like knowledge has been lost here, or perhaps those who originally possessed it to spout are no longer here 🤔 ) Your view is very watsonian imo, but ignores the Doyalism of it all.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2021, 09:36:31 PM »
of course it does, he's the protagonist 🤣
Seriously though, Molly isn't an adult paving her own way, she has agency sure and no idea what to do with it. she's looking for a guide as it is, someone to show her an example of what she can do next. Harry is it, on top of the extraordinary amount of influence he has in everyone around him. An with Harry literally making the next choices on how things will play out, giving her specific options to run with. Some of those fates more heavily influenced of course. But the cheek scar has long been fabled about. (Recently feeling like knowledge has been lost here, or perhaps those who originally possessed it to spout are no longer here 🤔 ) Your view is very watsonian imo, but ignores the Doyalism of it all.
Unless there's some WoJ on it that I haven't seen (and there's a lot of WoJ I haven't seen, I avoided all of them for a long time, so it's a distinct possiblity), there's not much to go on from a Doylist perspective.

It seems to me like they can all be possibilities from that point, but for them to be truths in branch realities, and foreshadowing for those branches, it'd require that there be catalysts for branches. I tend to think branches are rare, but that's based on personal preference rather than evidence. I don't like the infinite-splinterverse concept.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2021, 01:16:21 AM »
Molly never really was free.  Charity failed her by keeping secrets. Harry let her in too close and in the end exposed her to things she might have missed had he worked to keep her clear. Mainly that means not putting her in a position where Mab and Lea could be involved with her life.

I think each image are visions of the story that Jim thought about writing. But he wrote the first one for sure and maybe the last.

Mab gave us one piece of foreshadowing when she told Harry to kill Molly if she fell. And the books have foreshadowed her death in Empty Night. Then there is this. Speaking of Mab...
Quote
Her hair darkened as well to the same color, and her eyes turned entirely black, sclera and all, as did her nails. The skin seemed to cling harder to her bones, making her beautiful features gaunt and terrible.

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (pp. 60-61). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Quote
The last reflection of Molly wasn’t the girl. Oh, it looked like Molly, externally. But the eyes gave it away. They were flat as a reptile’s, empty. She wore all black, including a black collar, and her hair had been dyed to match. Though she looked like Molly, like a human being, she was neither. She had become something else entirely, something very, very bad.
Seems pretty close.

Offline Mira

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2021, 03:42:22 AM »
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Molly never really was free.  Charity failed her by keeping secrets. Harry let her in too close and in the end exposed her to things she might have missed had he worked to keep her clear. Mainly that means not putting her in a position where Mab and Lea could be involved with her life.

Yes and no, I know Mab put the responsibility of what happened to Molly squarely on Harry because he allowed her hero worship.  However Harry had no clue either that Molly had talent until the damage was already done.  Also the idea that Molly never was free is nonsense.  Yes, she was young and the young often make foolish choices, but she still had free will to make choices.  She could have gone to Harry when she discovered she had talent, she chose not to.  That had consequences, and not just for her.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2021, 09:26:04 AM »
Unless there's some WoJ on it that I haven't seen (and there's a lot of WoJ I haven't seen, I avoided all of them for a long time, so it's a distinct possiblity), there's not much to go on from a Doylist perspective.
Depends on how you define finding Doyalism perspectives. Jim has poured himself into his work as all writers, and has done numerous interviews about his work.(in which, he has discussed magic and world mechanics extensively) If you look at these things akin to a profiler looking at a crime scene or left messages then, there's alot to consider along the general lines of "why would they have this happen, what rules, tropes, or ideas did he use?". These are the things I try to consider with my own theorizing that usually make them seem so crazy from the other side lol. I'm pretty sure some things I've guessed with this have come to pass now, but I don't remember what offhand. Waiting/hoping on more, just cause they're really good plot hooks if I'm seeing them right.
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It seems to me like they can all be possibilities from that point, but for them to be truths in branch realities, and foreshadowing for those branches, it'd require that there be catalysts for branches. I tend to think branches are rare, but that's based on personal preference rather than evidence. I don't like the infinite-splinterverse concept.
Fair enough, I actually enjoy multiversal stories, for various reasons good enough stories don't always have to make sense(all you zombies), though I prefer ones with definite rules. I think they're pretty basic in the DF, and the most defined evidence of them in action is those characters who have some talent in foresight. The alshavara cabbage patch doll thing, Steed, that one Ordo member. Now, whether those things are happening in tandom or are only possible flow of one single river of time is debatable I suppose. Could be that it's back to the future 2 like and the only thing we actually experience are the snippets of previous time travelers actions in changing the timeline.
As far as what I think we're seeing, is clue bat peeks into other timelines to be showcased later for either the MM or TT books. Iirc they put one clue for Molly being winter lady in the artwork, why not more? Jim likes his games, puns, and long con jokes, he uses imagery from things he's seen in pop culture and reimagines it for his own works, he keeps to his rules but doesn't adequately explain them in verse and uses Harry's own ignorance as the reasoning, he explains things in layers operating on an almost thaumaturgical scale for magic and how certain plot devices work. I always consider these points and more when I can

Offline Mira

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2021, 07:33:10 PM »
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Could be that it's back to the future 2 like and the only thing we actually experience are the snippets of previous time travelers actions in changing the timeline.

Or more simply, history repeats itself, time travel isn't needed.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2021, 08:01:29 PM »
Or more simply, history repeats itself, time travel isn't needed.
that's a different theory altogether, and also one of mine, yea.