Author Topic: Harry's soul - will it change?  (Read 1929 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Harry's soul - will it change?
« on: July 17, 2021, 01:04:12 AM »
Does anyone think there will come a time when someone who has soulgazed Harry in the past will look into Harry's eyes and be floored by what they see because Harry's soul has undergone a significant change?  Harry has stated that he doesn't avert his gaze from those people he's shared a soulgaze with because he knows it won't have any effect on them.

Without Harry becoming overtly evil or being possessed by an Outsider or something else, do you think Harry's soul could be significantly changed so that it would trigger new soulgazes with past partners?

I also wonder about Marcone.  Harry has said on more than occasion that Marcone has a Tiger's soul, but I'm wondering if the crime boss could become corrupted by Thorned Namshiel to the point where his soul changes and this triggers a new soulgaze with Harry.

Another candidate for a change of soul might be Thomas, after he goes through whatever is happening to him on Demonreach.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 01:17:33 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's soul - will it change?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2021, 05:10:28 AM »

I thought the soul gaze only worked once.  Or rather I remember that was a topic here years ago, because the question has come up before.  What I cannot remember is if it was merely the consensus between us, if it was in one of the books or a WOJ, at any rate I believe it was quite a long thread.

However having said that, though I don't think Harry will basically change, we all change somewhat, and different things will be seen by different people.. But I think that would be true in any case because we tend to bring our own prejudices into what we see.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 02:29:07 PM by Mira »

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Harry's soul - will it change?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2021, 04:25:36 PM »
I thought the soul gaze only worked once.  Or rather I remember that was a topic here years ago, because the question has come up before.  What I cannot remember is if it was merely the consensus between us, if it was in one of the books or a WOJ, at any rate I believe it was quite a long thread.

It's in the books that it's one time, but there was a WOJ that massive personality changes might allow a second. Big enough changes are extremely rare though.

I'd be surprised if it's in the cards for Harry, but I do wonder if Maggie Sr's moral realignment was dramatic enough to cut it.

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's soul - will it change?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2021, 04:58:40 PM »
It's in the books that it's one time, but there was a WOJ that massive personality changes might allow a second. Big enough changes are extremely rare though.

I'd be surprised if it's in the cards for Harry, but I do wonder if Maggie Sr's moral realignment was dramatic enough to cut it.

I think a soul gaze with Margaret after she met and married Malcolm was totally different.. What underscores that is what Chauncy said, that they were looking forward to her coming to them, and then she changed and that changed.  So I imagine her soul gaze did a complete 180..

Offline Kindler

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Re: Harry's soul - will it change?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2021, 06:19:07 PM »
It's in the books that it's one time, but there was a WOJ that massive personality changes might allow a second. Big enough changes are extremely rare though.
I recall that WoJ, but I've also always related that to Names, too. Harry states more than once that a mortal's Name isn't all that usable, because humans constantly reinvent themselves. Makes me wonder why a Name is more mutable than the circumstances allowing a second Soulgaze.

Offline LostInTime

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Re: Harry's soul - will it change?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2021, 01:08:47 AM »
I was thinking about this and ran into one of those questions we don't have enough info to decide if it is possible.

What happens to someone who bargains with a fae and exchanges memories? If you traded away enough memories, are you the same person? Is your soul the same without those memories?
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Harry's soul - will it change?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2021, 02:53:03 PM »
What happens to someone who bargains with a fae and exchanges memories? If you traded away enough memories, are you the same person? Is your soul the same without those memories?
That's the kind of question that has kept philosophers employed for a couple of millennia. Ship of Theseus-style stuff. If you slowly replace every board, nail, sail, and rope, one by one, over the course of a decade—every single piece no longer the original—is it still the same ship? Plutarch didn't have an answer. Thomas Hobbes asked two thousand years later: what if you took all of those original parts and built an entirely new ship out of them? Is that the Ship of Theseus now? Or is it something different?
I would contend that, for the purposes of Soulgazes, yes, there would eventually be a point at which enough memories are lost or altered to trigger a new one. When Susan did it, she lost about a year's worth of memories with Harry (but only Harry), so she's still the same person. I'd argue that, if Lea had gone all the way back to some foundational cornerstone memories (childhood, adolescence, first loves, etc.), then yeah, Susan would've been different enough that she'd be a different person.
On the other hand, the way Lea formed that particular bargain didn't actually erase the memories, she just kind of altered them to eliminate one element, and it created all kinds of logical inconsistencies. I don't know if Faeries can actually remove them altogether, even with a bargain. If they can't be removed, then I'd argue against my previous point.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry's soul - will it change?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2021, 04:03:51 PM »
Removed from what. When Harry was dead he had superior access to his memories from that other place.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's soul - will it change?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2021, 06:51:45 PM »
Removed from what. When Harry was dead he had superior access to his memories from that other place.

Yeah, but he was only mostly dead....