Author Topic: Revisit this. Grey Counsel  (Read 5994 times)

Offline b4utoo

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Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« on: July 14, 2021, 04:13:26 AM »
Who showed up at Chichen Itza and did the whole grey Council show up? Could be very significant going forward

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2021, 05:58:52 AM »
It was the whole Grey Council at that time. It could be that others have joined or left/died/whatever since.

According to Jim, it was thirteen members including Harry and at the time of Changes we had seen six of them (not including Harry, Ebenezar or Vadderung).

We obviously know Ebenezar, Vadderung, and Harry. But that leaves six that we know.

Quote
2010 Bitten by Books Q&A:
#136 “I am also highly intrigued by the Gray Council showing up as 12 in number.”
Thirteen, actually: Harry was already there.
“So we found out who 2 of them were, i’d like to know how many of the rest we already know and how many of them haven’t been formally introduced to us yet.”
Hang on, counting… You already know six of the folks who showed up at Chichen Itza, excluding McCoy and Vadderung. :)

It's been discussed several times who the remaining members are but here are my current guesses.

KNOWN:
1. Harry
2. Ebenezar McCoy
3. Donar Vadderung

GUESSES:
4. Listens-to-Wind
5. Rashid (the Gatekeeper)
6. Anastasia Luccio
7. Martha Liberty
8. The Erlking (Lord Herne)
9. Eldest Gruff

10. Unknown
11. Unknown
12. Unknown
13. Unknown

The last four we hadn't met as of Changes. We may have now, we may not have. I included the Fae because Ebenezar describes the Grey Council as being made up of "Some wizards. Some key allies". I couldn't figure who else key allies might mean but Eldest Gruff and the Erlking seemed as good bets as any.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 11:29:32 PM by Yuillegan »
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Offline b4utoo

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2021, 03:18:36 AM »
Any takers as Elaine being one dark horse

Offline forumghost

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2021, 03:36:20 AM »
Any takers as Elaine being one dark horse

Doubtful. Nobody but Harry knows Elaine is anything more then a minor practitioner, and even if they did, Elaine is the Anti-Harry- she's very busy keeping her head down and her nose clean and looking out for number one.

I can't see her joining a group like the Grey Council.

Offline b4utoo

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2021, 04:37:04 AM »
We know that's her..  But ...what if she hasn't told Harry everything.. What if she's become a player...

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2021, 04:54:05 AM »
Doubtful. Nobody but Harry knows Elaine is anything more then a minor practitioner, and even if they did, Elaine is the Anti-Harry- she's very busy keeping her head down and her nose clean and looking out for number one.

I can't see her joining a group like the Grey Council.
She's pretending to be a minor practitioner but she's still taken a fairly prominent role as head of the Paranet.
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2021, 05:09:50 AM »
It was the whole Grey Council at that time. It could be that others have joined or left/died/whatever since.

According to Jim, it was thirteen members including Harry and at the time of Changes we had seen six of them (not including Harry, Ebenezar or Vadderung).

We obviously know Ebenezar, Vadderung, and Harry. But that leaves six that we know.

It's been discussed several times who the remaining members are but here are my current guesses.

KNOWN:
1. Harry
2. Ebenezar McCoy
3. Donar Vadderung

GUESSES:
4. Listens-to-Wind
5. Rashid (the Gatekeeper)
6. Anastasia Luccio
7. Martha Liberty
8. The Erlking (Lord Herne)
9. Eldest Gruff

10. Unknown
11. Unknown
12. Unknown
13. Unknown

The last four we hadn't met as of Changes. We may have now, we may not have. I included the Fae because Ebenezar describes the Grey Council as being made up of "Some wizards. Some key allies". I couldn't figure who else key allies might mean but Eldest Gruff and the Erlking seemed as good bets as any.

I don't think Gatekeeper would be there.  He doesn't strike me as a combat wizard, and his role at the Outer Gates is too important.  I think he's in the Grey Council, I just don't think he'd be there on the ground taking part in the battle.

Leah was there, would she be considered a member?  I believe she and Vadderung "sealed" a deal didn't they?
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Offline Ed0517

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2021, 07:56:45 AM »
If you have the Fae included, why not Lea (protecting the Godson, a good bet), or maybe even Mab.  Flowing robes could hide the women, though Mab and Lea are taller than Eb anyway, but Herne, Rashid, and Vadderung should stand out - they were in a group, and are all 7 feet or better. And River would be obvious - and he does not project power, he is more a melee tank.  rule him out.  I would not doubt the Gatekeeper can light them up. I am not always 100% sure he's human. Can a scion join up?

I don't know about the Gruff. That draws Summer in. Herne is Wyldfae. He does not commit Mab. Lea has an obligation to Harry's mother. That might mean she does not commit Winter.

Carlos seems to have figured out what is going on... could he be in?

I think the Archive is likely standing neutral. But..... she has the firepower.

Kincaid is a merc, but he's shown no magic. No one was up there with a battle rifle.

Elaine is skilled, and a better touch than Harry - but does she have that kind of firepower, even if she wanted to? These seem heavy hitters, with Harry as low end.  I would not be surprised if the WC knows Elaine survived. they'd likely check the site of the fire, and lacking remains...  And the higher ups may have an idea of her power level.

     I do not see it so unlikely that Eb might have looked in on Harry when he was with Justin. He's not just a wizard, he's his grandfather. He'd likely have taken the measure of Elaine as well. I also think he has to know who Thomas is. He may not know Harry and Thomas know all that, but he should at least suspect they know their real relationship.  So the Seniors may know about Elaine, they just haven't leaked out anything if she keeps her head down.  Sending Carlos to check her out tells her they know she's a wizard, and maybe they test Carlos' perceptions if he can see how strong she is?


Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2021, 03:43:06 PM »
I don't think Gatekeeper would be there.  He doesn't strike me as a combat wizard, and his role at the Outer Gates is too important.  I think he's in the Grey Council, I just don't think he'd be there on the ground taking part in the battle.

Leah was there, would she be considered a member?  I believe she and Vadderung "sealed" a deal didn't they?
He is a combat wizard though...he fights at the Outer Gates and he fought during the vampire war against the vampires. Where do you get the idea that he isn't? Jim considers him the most dangerous wizard on the Council.

It's possible he isn't on the Grey Council. But Jim said we knew six of them as of Changes. I imagine Ebenezar would pick his close allies, and Rashid is a self-proclaimed ally of Eb. So he seemed a good bet to me. Considering the Grey Council is set up not merely to fight the Black Council, as Harry believed initially, but Nemesis - he seems an excellent choice for the line up.

Well, I used to think Lea might be a member. But when Jim was asked about membership he specifically said thirteen members were at Chichen Itza including Harry (twelve are summoned by Lea) but Harry is the thirteenth member. Jim specifically says we know Harry, Vadderung and Eb, and we had met six others as of Changes. Lea just can't fit mathematically. She might have become a member later of course. But Jim hinted it was significant there was thirteen members. I would say because Harry said thirteen are the most you can have when teaming up on a spell.

If you have the Fae included, why not Lea (protecting the Godson, a good bet), or maybe even Mab.  Flowing robes could hide the women, though Mab and Lea are taller than Eb anyway, but Herne, Rashid, and Vadderung should stand out - they were in a group, and are all 7 feet or better. And River would be obvious - and he does not project power, he is more a melee tank.  rule him out.  I would not doubt the Gatekeeper can light them up. I am not always 100% sure he's human. Can a scion join up?

I don't know about the Gruff. That draws Summer in. Herne is Wyldfae. He does not commit Mab. Lea has an obligation to Harry's mother. That might mean she does not commit Winter.

Carlos seems to have figured out what is going on... could he be in?

I think the Archive is likely standing neutral. But..... she has the firepower.

Kincaid is a merc, but he's shown no magic. No one was up there with a battle rifle.

Elaine is skilled, and a better touch than Harry - but does she have that kind of firepower, even if she wanted to? These seem heavy hitters, with Harry as low end.  I would not be surprised if the WC knows Elaine survived. they'd likely check the site of the fire, and lacking remains...  And the higher ups may have an idea of her power level.

     I do not see it so unlikely that Eb might have looked in on Harry when he was with Justin. He's not just a wizard, he's his grandfather. He'd likely have taken the measure of Elaine as well. I also think he has to know who Thomas is. He may not know Harry and Thomas know all that, but he should at least suspect they know their real relationship.  So the Seniors may know about Elaine, they just haven't leaked out anything if she keeps her head down.  Sending Carlos to check her out tells her they know she's a wizard, and maybe they test Carlos' perceptions if he can see how strong she is?
See my reasons above for not including Lea. Mab and Lea can adjust their heights as it happens. I don't see Mab being on the team - she could have wasted most of the Red Court and the Red King and his Lords of the Outer Night by herself. I believe Jim once said it would take the entire Red Court to beat her.

Well Vadderung was there in Changes so we know he is one. Distance can make it hard to judge heights, particularly in the dark. Harry didn't seem to notice anyone's height but Ebenezar (because Eb is so short). River did seem like a poor choice as he would literally have had to pretend to be a human. He can shapeshift but why bother? Everytime we have seen him fight he stands out.

I picked Eldest Gruff as he seems to be a calming influence, and he wields a wizard's staff. Like all the members of the Grey Council.

The Archive couldn't be there, at least at that stage. And she would have still been quite short. She too would have stood out considering her power. But the Archive is meant to be neutral. She only fights when her back is against the wall.

Carlos is possible. But he seems to young and too dramatic. Why would Eb pick him over so many senior wardens and other wizards?

Kincaid isn't one. I'll put money on that.

Elaine would be a hell of a dark horse...I don't see it though for similar reasons to Carlos. Why would Eb pick her? She has also remained firm that she doesn't want to be involved in that sort of thing. Even if Eb knew she was alive and capable, and wanted her on the team for whatever reason, why pick her? Why would she say yes?

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Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2021, 05:54:54 PM »
Contrarian possibility - Arthur Langtry
Not my pick, but I've seen original forum members name him as a member.  Sometimes defended as a Machiavellian genius who has secretly pushed Harry in the direction he needs to go.

Real contrarian possibility - Nicodemus Archleone
He told Harry he wanted the Red Court destroyed.  More important, he probably wants to stymie the goals of the Outsiders.  Wouldn't it be a kick in Harry's guts if one of the people who came out to help him was Nic?  For this to be true, Nicodemus was hiding his participation when he told Murphy in Skin Game that he heard about what she did at Chicken Pizza when he actually saw what she did.  Nic would also have been too preoccupied in combat to have seen why Harry was there.  I.E. He didn't see Harry's daughter.

Another, more realistic possibility - Klaus the Toymaker
He's Senior Council level.  Jim has talked about him a couple of times at Q & A's.  One time I heard Jim mention a short story possibility that would have featured Klaus.       


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Offline groinkick

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2021, 11:07:35 PM »
He is a combat wizard though...he fights at the Outer Gates and he fought during the vampire war against the vampires. Where do you get the idea that he isn't? Jim considers him the most dangerous wizard on the Council.

I could be wrong because I haven't touched up on the earlier books in a while but I'm pretty sure it's Winter who fights at the Gates, and Rashid is there to scan the injured who come through, for Nemesis is my guess.  When he faced off against the vampires it was because they were ambushed, not because he was actively looking for combat from what I remember.  Being dangerous doesn't just revolve around what you can do under a combat situation.  Mike Tyson might be way more dangerous in a physical confrontation than a scientist, but a scientist who can create bioweapons is way more dangerous.

I'm not saying Rashid isn't capable of combat magic.  He's got centuries of experience, and can probably do all kinds of crazy stuff.  That said there is a difference between combat magic, and other forms of magic.  The reason being that in a combat situation there is a measure of athleticism involved.  You have to be quick, agile, and have endurance.  I'm sure Rashid is quite capable, but he doesn't strike me as the type who'd fare well in a prolonged conflict where his physical body would be placed under quite a lot of stress.  His magic might be able to hold up, but his body might not. 

I don't remember for sure but I'm almost sure that at some point Jim said that Rashid uses as little magic as possible.  He didn't go into detail, or explain why though. 

Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful. Smiley - Jim....  In my opinion this has less to do with combat magic, or super powerful magic but probably has more to do with his knowledge, and possibly a gift for messing with time.  I mean imagine someone who is able to alter time, alter the outcome of a fight...  That is serious power right there. 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 11:14:30 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline Mira

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2021, 11:47:46 PM »
Quote
Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful. Smiley - Jim....  In my opinion this has less to do with combat magic, or super powerful magic but probably has more to do with his knowledge, and possibly a gift for messing with time.  I mean imagine someone who is able to alter time, alter the outcome of a fight...  That is serious power right there. 

Yes, he is, and let's not forget that what he really is about that even his eye has a disguise.. It is also no accident that he appears to wear Winter's colors. 

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2021, 01:03:50 AM »
Elaine is skilled, and a better touch than Harry - but does she have that kind of firepower, even if she wanted to? These seem heavy hitters, with Harry as low end.  I would not be surprised if the WC knows Elaine survived. they'd likely check the site of the fire, and lacking remains...  And the higher ups may have an idea of her power level.
White Night shows she can throw out some big punches when she needs to and says she's not far behind Harry in terms of pure power. Of course she probably wasn't Grey Council like you said, willingly sticking her neck into a budding White Council civil war is the opposite of staying off the radar.
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Offline Basil

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2021, 09:29:23 PM »
If WoJ was that as of Changes we knew 6 of the 13 members, this is my best guess as to who:

1. McCoy
2. Harry
3. Listens-to-Wind
4. Martha Liberty
5. Donnar Vadderung
6. Rashid


Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Revisit this. Grey Counsel
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2021, 03:06:52 AM »
  • Harry Dresden
  • Eb McCoy
  • Donar Vadderung
  • Elder Gruff
  • River Shoulders
  • Martha Liberty
  • Carlos Ramirez
  • Klaus the Toymaker
  • Ivy the Archive
  • Pinga
  • Māui
  • Mami Wata
  • Sun Wukong the Monkey King

Likely not there
  • Listens-to-Winds - was sick with Arianna's curse.
  • Luccio - too weak and likely locked/occupied by Cristos.
  • Gatekeeper - likely at the Gates since Mab and Lea were both preoccupied with Harry.
  • Wild Bill & Yoshimo - likely locked up.
  • Chandler - likely busy with the issues at headquarters.
  • Elaine - Not in the inner circle.
  • Cristos - nobody trusts him.
  • Merlin, Ancient Mai - likely know of the GC, but wouldn't be members for reasons.