Author Topic: Did Rashid kick Harry out of the White Council with an ulterior motive?  (Read 4979 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Your impression is different from mine, my take since the Senior Council wanted Harry to be demoted to apprentice again, which Rashid mostly abstained from judging one way or the other
had his own standards of judgement as to whether Harry was more warlock than wizard.

So I will quote Summer Knight here.
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"Wizard DuMorne died, yes," LaFortier said. "Whether he was defeated in an open duel or burned in his
sleep is another matter entirely. Merlin, you have heard my motion. Let the Council vote upon the status
of this madman. Let us end this foolishness and return to our lives."
 Ouch. An angle I hadn't thought of. If I was stripped of my stole, it would be like a medieval noble
having his title taken away. I would no longer be a wizard, politically speaking, and according to Council
law and to the Accords between the various supernatural factions, the Council would be obligated to turn
over a fugitive murderer to the Red Court. Which would mean, if I was fortunate, a horrible death.
If I
wasn't fortunate, it could be considerably worse

I have bolded the relevant sections. The point being, the vote was not about reducing Harry to rank of apprentice but about whether he was a member of the White Council at all. Which is what has happened as of Battle Ground. Harry now doesn't have their protections but also isn't protected from them by their own laws. It does seem the Council is responsible for all mortal wizards even if they are not White Council members - probably because they have appointed themselves such. Nonetheless, Harry would have been thrown to the wolves.

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If I didn't play with the faeries and come out on top, the Council would serve me up to the
vampires on a silver platter. The former might get me really, really killed. The latter would certainly kill me
as well—and probably more than that

Quote
The Gatekeeper regarded me in silence for a moment and said, "Then I will not vote against you."
 A little chill went through me. "Oh. You would have?"
 "Had you walked away, I would kill you myself."
 I stared at him for a second and then asked, "Why?"
 His voice came out soft and resolute, but not unkind. "Because voting against you would have been the
same thing in any case. It seems meet to me that I should take full responsibility for that choice rather than
hiding behind Council protocol.

The Gatekeeper wasn't worried about Harry being a warlock (at least in this situation). He was fulfilling his duties as a member of the Senior Council and was more concerned whether Harry deserved to be a member of the White Council, which was the point of the trial that Harry is put on. I hope all that clarifies things.

Again your impression is different from mine, the impression I got from Battle Ground was the attack upon the Gates was much more serious than it was in Cold Days.  Also I find it hard to believe that if Rashid was willing to go through all the trouble he did in Cold Days to reestablish Harry as alive etc., that he'd vote to have him executed or expelled from the Council over the killing of Turtlenecks with magic during the Battle of Chicago.  Especially in the light that it wouldn't be surprising if, Christos, LtW, and Eb were possibly guilty of the same thing in the heat of battle. And last but not least, more than anyone Rashid has a handle on what Harry's job as Winter Knight and Warden of Demonreach has been.  Unless of course he thinks it is better for Harry to work outside of the Council now.  Which he may, if he does we will hear his reasoning.  It is also odd that Rashid hasn't talked to Harry before any of this went down or after, because he always has in the past.  That says something about how dire conditions at the Gates must be.
Maybe it was, maybe not. Both times were intense attacks. Without more information it's hard to say which attack was worse.

The fact that Harry is finally voted out suggests that a certain prediction is close. Hence the point of this thread. I believe it's possible Rashid voted out Harry on purpose because the time is coming for Harry to take on the White Council - something Rashid has predicted to happen in Turn Coat.

Ebenezar isn't guilty because he has he has the discretion to break the Laws of Magic as he sees fit. He doesn't have to get written permission because as the Blackstaff he is expected to have the judgement, otherwise he wouldn't have been chosen. He also isn't at risk of going warlock as he is protected from black magic taint. In a way, Ebenezar can't really be guilty of breaking the Laws. He might have to justify things every now and then - but that's more of a political matter I'd imagine.

Perhaps Cristos and Carlos might have killed with magic. But Carlos seems to truly believe it's wrong - it makes him a great warden. So it isn't that likely. Not impossible of course though. Cristos is a different matter entirely, depending on how corrupt he might be (and whether he is truly evil or just a puppet). But the point is no one else at the Battle of Chicago was reported for killing with magic. It's Harry who is on trial - and his guilt is not dependant on whatever other members of the Council were doing. The case is judged on it's own merits. Unfair as it might be I suspect it will be the best thing for Harry, in the end. Which is further why I think that it's possible Rashid voted Harry out. In Rashid's eyes (in my theory) he is not punishing Harry, but freeing him to do what needs to be done - i.e. challenging the White Council.

 
Rashid wasn't injured then.

I took it as unanimous because Merlin had proxy votes, Rashid was occupied, and Martha Liberty flipped on seeing that Harry commands the loyalty of the previously unaligned Wyldfae Little Folk.
I didn't say Rashid was injured...? I am not sure how you got that. It was McCoy and LtW who were injured, and probably Cristos (assuming he isn't dead). Rashid might have been injured but nothing in the books suggests that.

Martha Liberty, of all people, shouldn't be upset that Harry commands the Little Folk - considering she herself has legions of contacts (particularly amongst the loa). She uses them mostly to gather information - which is also what Harry does with the Little Folk. He does use them to fight too, perhaps Martha Liberty could do that with the loa, but she might also see downsides Harry doesn't or that might be only applicable to the loa and her.

Offline morriswalters

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As for Summer Knight, Rashid was going to kill Harry not because Harry would be kicked out of the Council, but because should Harry be stripped of the protections of the White Council, the onus was on the Council to overturn a fugitive murderer to the Red Court as stipulated by the Accords. Had Harry failed the Trial that the Gatekeeper had set, he would be a dead man walking and so the Gatekeeper felt it better to kill him personally rather than have the Red Court do it. And though it wasn't stated, probably because he also didn't want the Red Court to turn a starborn to their cause - perhaps even make him a Red Court vampire.
You and I have a much different take.  As of the time that the Gatekeeper made his threat, Harry had passed the trial and Mab would have given the Council access to the Ways.  Harry was home free as far as the Council was concerned. Rashid had a clearer vision of the stakes.  Assuming that Jim had made up his mind how the story was going to progress, then Rashid may have known that Aurora was nemfected and would have to be killed.  This was Rashid's trial. I may be reading it wrong of course. Here's the relevant text.
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"I choose to base my vote upon a Trial. A test that will lay to rest the fears of one side of the issue, or prove falsely placed the faith of the other."

"What Trial?" the Merlin asked.

"Mab," the Gatekeeper said. "Let Dresden address Queen Mab's request. Let him secure the assistance of Winter. If he does, that should lay to rest your concerns regarding his ability, LaFortier."

LaFortier frowned, but then nodded at the Gatekeeper.

He turned next to Ancient Mai. "Should he accomplish this, it should show that he is willing to accept responsibility for his mistake and to work against his own best interests for the greater good of the Council. It should satisfy your concerns as to his judgement—to make the mistakes of youth is no crime, but not to learn from them is. Agreed?"

Ancient Mai narrowed her rheumy eyes, but gave the Gatekeeper a precise nod.

"And you, honored Merlin. Such a success may do much to alleviate the pressure of the coming war. If securing routes through the Nevernever places the Red Court at a severe enough disadvantage, it may even enable us to avoid it entirely. Surely it would prove Dresden's dedication to the Council beyond a doubt."

"That's all well and good," Ebenezar said. "But what happens if he fails?"

The Gatekeeper shrugged. "Then perhaps their fears are more justified than your affection, Wizard McCoy. We may indeed conclude that his appointment to full Wizard Initiate may have been premature."
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The Gatekeeper put a gloved hand on my arm. "But you do," he said. "My vision is limited, but I know that you have accomplished your mission for the Winter Queen. She will keep her end of the bargain, grant us safe passage through her realm. So far as the Council is concerned, that will be enough. You would be safe."

I hesitated.

"Wizard Dresden, you could end your involvement in the matter. You could choose to step clear of it, right now. It would end the trial."
Quote
"No," I said. "It isn't over."

"No?" the Gatekeeper said, surprise in the tone. "Why not?"

"Because I'm an idiot." I sighed. "And there are people in trouble."

"Wizard, no one expects you to stop a war between the Sidhe Courts. The Council would assign no such responsibility to any one person."

"To hell with the Sidhe Courts," I said. "And to hell with the Council too. There are people I know in trouble. And I'm the one who turned some of this loose. I'll clean it up."

"You're sure?" the Gatekeeper said. "You won't step out of the Trial now?"

My mud-crusted fingers fumbled with the clasp of my bracelet. "I won't."

The Gatekeeper regarded me in silence for a moment and said, "Then I will not vote against you."

A little chill went through me. "Oh. You would have?"

"Had you walked away, I would kill you myself."

Some speculation for fun.  If Rashid moved against Harry, my take is that he's moving him in a path that preserves him for whatever.  He'll kill him if he veers off to far and reset the board and try again.  How's that for a WAG. I stole that off of Live, Die, Repeat.

Offline Ed0517

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I tend to agree that Rashid likely did not vote, he was likely at the Gates. Didn't Chandler once say the only wizard he saw less frequently that Rashid was Harry? Merlin likely held his proxy by rule.  But...... more than any other wizard except Harry, he seems to walk his own path. He even said at least once it would be merciful to kill Harry. Never seen a weapon, and no indication he could take on the Winter Knight - Jim slipped and used numbers there - Harry is quite a bit stronger than any normal man, at least in this world. He can call that mother-lifts-car-off-child adrenaline in a six foot nine male body. have to assume he was planning on using magic, against the Rules.  Could he see an advantage in Harry being cut loose? Maybe seen Mab's plan to marry Harry off - bringing the WCV closer to being allies.  And maybe thus also adding Winter to the WCV if the Blacks kick up a fuss. Are all the Vampire Courts signatories? 

Of course, allies are two groups with a common enemy - could even the Denarians kick in against Outsiders? The Denarians may want to possess and souls... can't do that if the Outsiders have them. Hey, look, Stalin was one of the Allies....   

Martha Liberty - is there a senior council member we have seen less of? If she has comms she may have recon, and seen/reported Harry.   

Offline Mira

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Perhaps Cristos and Carlos might have killed with magic. But Carlos seems to truly believe it's wrong - it makes him a great warden. So it isn't that likely. Not impossible of course though. Cristos is a different matter entirely, depending on how corrupt he might be (and whether he is truly evil or just a puppet). But the point is no one else at the Battle of Chicago was reported for killing with magic. It's Harry who is on trial - and his guilt is not dependant on whatever other members of the Council were doing. The case is judged on it's own merits. Unfair as it might be I suspect it will be the best thing for Harry, in the end. Which is further why I think that it's possible Rashid voted Harry out. In Rashid's eyes (in my theory) he is not punishing Harry, but freeing him to do what needs to be done - i.e. challenging the White Council.

I don't see Rashid doing that unless he warned Harry before hand or an explanation afterwards. This is what he has repeatedly done all through the series. 

Harry also believes that it is wrong to kill with magic, but as you say he does what has to be done at the time.  How is that different from Carlos or Christos?  And why does that make Carlos as great Warden and Harry not?

I also agree with Morriswalters and the text from Summer Knight that he sights. I will also add Rashid's explanation as to why he would have killed him himself if he felt that he should have voted against Harry.

 
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"Had you walked away, I would have killed you myself."
I stared at him for a second and then asked,"Why?"
"Because voting against you would have been the same thing in any case.  It seems meet to me that I should take full responsibility for that choice rather than hiding behind Council protocol."
 

He also says that he won't kill Harry because he was willing to take some of the responsibility for
what was going on between the Sidhe Courts even if no one on the Council would expect him to stop the war between the Sidhe Courts..

The Rashid does what he can to help Harry, the ointment for help him see through Sidhe veils and a piece of the Stone Table.  Harry accuses Rashid of interfering with his trial. To which Rashid replies;
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"Sometimes what the Council does not know does not hurt it."

Then he says something interesting;

Quote
He nodded.  "Hurry. The Council dare not interfere with the internal affairs of the Sidhe, but we do what we can."

By "we" is Rashid referring just to himself?  Him and Harry?  Him and others unknown on the Council?  I think while the Council thinks they know why Harry was born, only Rashid actually knows why Margaret gave birth to him.  He is the also the only one who knows the whole story as far as the Winter Court goes and Harry.  So if Rashid did indeed vote to oust Harry he does indeed have an ulterior motive and I expect to hear what it is in the next book or short story.. Otherwise, I don't think he was there, and like in Proven Guilty Langtry was claiming vote proxies without getting instructions for those he is voting for as to how they wanted to vote.


Offline Yuillegan

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You and I have a much different take.  As of the time that the Gatekeeper made his threat, Harry had passed the trial and Mab would have given the Council access to the Ways.  Harry was home free as far as the Council was concerned. Rashid had a clearer vision of the stakes.  Assuming that Jim had made up his mind how the story was going to progress, then Rashid may have known that Aurora was nemfected and would have to be killed.  This was Rashid's trial. I may be reading it wrong of course. Here's the relevant text.

Some speculation for fun.  If Rashid moved against Harry, my take is that he's moving him in a path that preserves him for whatever.  He'll kill him if he veers off to far and reset the board and try again.  How's that for a WAG. I stole that off of Live, Die, Repeat.
The Trial would have ended at that point, yes. But Harry would have failed had he chosen to walk away then. As you say, it was a Trial set by the Gatekeeper. The entire point of the Trial was to test whether Harry was worthy of being a White Council wizard, at every level. While the Council at large would not have expected Harry to stop a war between the Courts, the Gatekeeper did expect him to try, if Harry was to be worthy of being a White Council wizard - in point of fact he had to succeed. Which is obvious in later books why - considering what impossible tasks are expected of Harry later on. Not to mention he had to survive. I also believe that Rashid was testing Harry in that conversation you quoted. He is testing Harry's resolve - offering him the easy way out. But more is expected (at least by Rashid's standards) of a wizard of the White Council. Of course, I would argue that he expects more of Harry than is expected of most of the Council. Then again, Harry is also a unique case with a lot of special considerations.

I think the Gatekeeper knows perhaps the best what could happen if Harry goes bad, and so he pays special attention to him. I think he has always been watching Harry and ready to nullify him if needed. I could see that by voting Harry out he is trying to protect him from the Council...but that suggests that Harry either needs to be free of the Council's restrictions (which says all sorts of bad things) or that the Council is going to fall soon and he wants Harry to avoid that demise (say the Librarians decide to end the Council, it might be good if a certain wizard is no longer associated with them).

I tend to agree that Rashid likely did not vote, he was likely at the Gates. Didn't Chandler once say the only wizard he saw less frequently that Rashid was Harry? Merlin likely held his proxy by rule.  But...... more than any other wizard except Harry, he seems to walk his own path. He even said at least once it would be merciful to kill Harry. Never seen a weapon, and no indication he could take on the Winter Knight - Jim slipped and used numbers there - Harry is quite a bit stronger than any normal man, at least in this world. He can call that mother-lifts-car-off-child adrenaline in a six foot nine male body. have to assume he was planning on using magic, against the Rules.  Could he see an advantage in Harry being cut loose? Maybe seen Mab's plan to marry Harry off - bringing the WCV closer to being allies.  And maybe thus also adding Winter to the WCV if the Blacks kick up a fuss. Are all the Vampire Courts signatories? 

Of course, allies are two groups with a common enemy - could even the Denarians kick in against Outsiders? The Denarians may want to possess and souls... can't do that if the Outsiders have them. Hey, look, Stalin was one of the Allies....   

Martha Liberty - is there a senior council member we have seen less of? If she has comms she may have recon, and seen/reported Harry.   
And yet, he has been present at every major vote around Harry. He was present at Harry's first trial, then in Summer Knight, then in Proven Guilty for Molly's trial, then Turn Coat for Morgan, and likely was at Chichen Itza as a Grey Council member... Just because Rashid isn't at Edinburgh a lot doesn't mean he doesn't attend important things...like Harry's expulsion from the Council. Considering how seriously he took it last time I can't imagine why he wouldn't be involved at some level. Even if he wasn't present, he may have orchestrated things so that the vote happened in the first place. He is well respected in the Council, particularly the Senior Council.

The bit about it being merciful to kill Harry is in the quoted paragraphs above (both Mira and I quoted that section). It's in direct reference to Harry being turned over to the Red Court should he fail his trial to stay a White Council wizard. Mira believes that it was more a judgement about whether Harry was a warlock or not. Jim has told us he is the most dangerous wizard on the Council. He and the Merlin stopped an entire army of Red Court vampires and Outsiders with a ward. Just one. Rashid is the oldest wizard on the planet (that we know of) by a considerable margin - he is over twice as old as "Ancient" Mai (who herself is over 400). We know wizards become stronger with age. Just consider that for a moment. Rashid is over 1000 years old. Harry wouldn't stand a chance. He doesn't need a weapon to kill Harry because his magic is more than enough. He likely is a starborn himself. He also can predict the future to some degree...which makes him extremely difficult to beat. We've had more than simply indications he could beat the Winter Knight. Any of the Senior Council could do that, even the non-combat oriented ones. They all have their own power-ups that they hide. They all have their own histories and successes. Rashid fights Outsiders as his job. I'd say he wouldn't be so worried by a Winter Knight. Harry might put up a good fight but he would be going up against a wizard who has survived over 1000 years of fights. It's just no comparison.

No, I don't believe that Rashid would be kicking out Harry because of his closeness to the White Court etc. That's what more narrow-minded wizards worry about. He is a big picture guy. My theory (this thread) was to do with Rashid predicting back in Turn Coat that Harry would one day challenge the White Council to combat, perhaps to war. The way he spoke about it even suggested he thought it was necessary. Whether he intends Harry to destroy the Council or simply conquer and rule it is another matter. But the point is that in order to set these events in motion, I propose that Rashid orchestrated Harry's removal (or at least participated to ensure it) from the White Council.

Some of the Fallen might be interested in fighting Outsiders. Lash doesn't seem to like them much. But it's hinted that at least some Denarians (whether lead by the host or the Fallen inside) are working with the Outsiders. It's been theorized that Lucifer's original purpose was possibly to do with fighting the Outsiders - but he believes the mortals are a massive security threat, hence his Fall. And all those others with him.

I don't see Rashid doing that unless he warned Harry before hand or an explanation afterwards. This is what he has repeatedly done all through the series. 

Harry also believes that it is wrong to kill with magic, but as you say he does what has to be done at the time.  How is that different from Carlos or Christos?  And why does that make Carlos as great Warden and Harry not?

I also agree with Morriswalters and the text from Summer Knight that he sights. I will also add Rashid's explanation as to why he would have killed him himself if he felt that he should have voted against Harry.
 
He also says that he won't kill Harry because he was willing to take some of the responsibility for
what was going on between the Sidhe Courts even if no one on the Council would expect him to stop the war between the Sidhe Courts..

The Rashid does what he can to help Harry, the ointment for help him see through Sidhe veils and a piece of the Stone Table.  Harry accuses Rashid of interfering with his trial. To which Rashid replies;
Then he says something interesting;

By "we" is Rashid referring just to himself?  Him and Harry?  Him and others unknown on the Council?  I think while the Council thinks they know why Harry was born, only Rashid actually knows why Margaret gave birth to him.  He is the also the only one who knows the whole story as far as the Winter Court goes and Harry.  So if Rashid did indeed vote to oust Harry he does indeed have an ulterior motive and I expect to hear what it is in the next book or short story.. Otherwise, I don't think he was there, and like in Proven Guilty Langtry was claiming vote proxies without getting instructions for those he is voting for as to how they wanted to vote.
Why warn Harry if the purpose is to set him at odds with the White Council? That would be counter-productive.

Harry doesn't believe it's so wrong that he doesn't do it. That's the difference between him and the other wizards. It's not necessarily that it makes Carlos a "better" warden, but we know why the Council (at least in part) are so uptight about breaking that law. It can corrupt the killer. By the standards of the White Council, Carlos is the better warden by a country mile. That doesn't mean that is objectively true in a universal sense. But Harry has long wondered (like many others) if the Council was right about a lot of things. As Luccio explains, it's a complicated thing. Harry's own mother railed against the perceived (and perhaps real) failings of the Council. But the White Council is mostly about limiting the power of wizards - not about morally guiding them. That doesn't mean they aren't a bunch of self-righteous dicks who have bullied the rest of the wizards into line, with authority granted through might rather than perhaps a moral right (even if they pretend that they are in fact moral). But that's almost every major body ever - governments, mobs, religions, armies you name it. 

Rashid wasn't going to kill Harry because Harry could have chosen to not stop a war between Winter and Summer. He was going to kill him because, as the quotes I provided earlier say, by voting against Harry's membership status as a White Council wizard he would effectively be killing him, as the Council would have been forced to hand Harry to the Red Court for "justice" in order to stop the war. Which probably would have only been temporary, but the Merlin desperately wanted to believe that was true. Rashid is too principled to hide behind protocol, as he even says. He also would have been sparing Harry a far worse death at the hands of literal monsters, who might have converted Harry into a Red Court vampire (thereby gaining a powerful wizard and starborn themselves). That's a threat too great to be ignored in and of itself.

Rashid then helps Harry because Harry is beyond the parameters of the trial and far more is at stake than Harry's membership status. Probably more than we were even aware of in that book, knowing what we do now about Rashid. Likely the Outsiders were putting pressure on elsewhere. Not to mention Nemesis was in Aurora, something that Rashid at the very least suspected if not knew. Rashid saying what the Council doesn't know does not hurt it, is reminding Harry that the Council at large exists to do what it does, but there are too many other things that it couldn't deal with and too many nuances that the Council at large can't process and so he is trying to teach Harry a lesson i.e. that sometimes you have to use your own judgement to do the best good. The rules are a guideline. The Council are only there to do what they can. But they can't do everything.

The "we" thing is probably two things. Firstly, Summer Knight is a book from really early in the series where many things were not well established and have either been soft-retconned or altered. The language that they talk about the Sidhe is quite different from later books as Jim's ideas had evolved. Secondly, I believe he is talking in a broad sense rather than a specific sense about the Council. He isn't referring to a clandestine group who specialise in interfering with the Sidhe. After all, his job is directly involved with the internal affairs of the Sidhe (primarily Winter). I believe it's occam's razor: the Council does what it can to preserve the balance of the Sidhe Courts so that things don't go bad in the mortal world, but are wary of overreaching. All powerful bodies do this to their various allies and competitors etc. It's espionage up to a point, but not with the goal of sabotage, but rather with the goal of preserving what the Council feels are it's best interests.

I don't doubt we will see the Gatekeeper the next time the White Council are prevalent in a book - hopefully next book. But Jim does leave things on the backburner so who knows.

Offline Mira

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I think the Gatekeeper knows perhaps the best what could happen if Harry goes bad, and so he pays special attention to him. I think he has always been watching Harry and ready to nullify him if needed. I could see that by voting Harry out he is trying to protect him from the Council...but that suggests that Harry either needs to be free of the Council's restrictions (which says all sorts of bad things) or that the Council is going to fall soon and he wants Harry to avoid that demise (say the Librarians decide to end the Council, it might be good if a certain wizard is no longer associated with them).

I think it is way more complicated than that.  Several things are revealed in Cold Days when Harry visits the Gates and Rashid.  1] Harry realizes that Rashid is one of very few who know who his mother was. 2] Rashid says the Gates are almost constantly under attack, some years worse than others. 3] He uses the word "we" again, as in "What we need is you" 4] Rashid tells Harry he can help him[Rashid] best by going back to Chicago and being himself.5] Rashid tells Harry he knows "precisely" how it feels to be where he is. 6] Rashid says he will settle matters as far as Harry's return "from the dead" with the Council. 7]  Most important, Rashid says;
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"I will do what I can.  If we both survive the next several hours, I will settle matters between you and the Council,which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to--and that isn't much."

So I take that to mean, if Rashid voted Harry out, it is because he needs him in Chicago on his own because the Council, who is almost clueless about his and Harry's roles as far as Winter is concerned, is cramping Harry's style.  In other words the next few steps that have to be taken by Harry to become what he needs to become to eventually confront the Enemy, he needs to take without someone[i.e. the Council] looking over his shoulder.  That's the best case I can see for Rashid voting him off, not because he fears that Harry has gone bad.  Otherwise, Rashid was away still guarding the Gates, which had just weathered a severe attack, and the Merlin abused his proxy.

Further, in my opinion when Rashid uses "we," he means himself and the Winter Court.  I wouldn't be shocked if it turns out that Rashid was in on the planning and bargaining with the Winter Court to pursued Margaret to conceive Harry, a star born in the first place.. Heck if Lea is his fae godmother, Rashid could very well be his godfather with sacred promises to Margaret to keep her son safe.  In his own special way, Rashid had done more over the series to protect and save Harry's bacon than even his grandfather.  And yes, I know Eb took up for Harry at his trial, but it doesn't sound like Eb was under the Doom with him.. Only to execute him if he appears to go warlock..
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 05:26:32 PM by Mira »

Offline Basil

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I don't think that Rashid voted to expel Harry, as I believe he would have been very busy at the Gates.  Considering differences in the flow of time, his part of the battle might not have been wrapped up by the time of the vote.  More likely, as per usual, Rashid failed to attend a meeting.  Merlin is pleased with this outcome because he gets an extra vote more often than not through the Council's proxy system.  In the end, we simply don't know at this point. 

But, I think the greater point is valid.  Rashid -- like Harry -- is "in", rather than "of" the Council.  Yes, Harry has been expelled; yes, Rashid is on the Senior Council.  But, they are both tourists essentially.  They have significant agendas that are necessarily above and beyond the concerns of the Council. 

All things being equal, each would prefer the Council be strong, united and a force for good.  However, each would happily go against the Council if it meant protecting Reality.  McCoy and even Merlin would also say the same; however, Merlin and McCoy think that what's good for the Council and what the Council thinks is good is essentially coextensive. 

Rashid, Harry and the readers know that the Council is often very parochial and far less informed than it believes. 

In fact, I'd say that McCoy and Merlin have different tactics, but actually share quite a bit of outlook. 

Offline Ed0517

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Yuillegan - I was not saying Rashid could not kill Harry - I was saying he could not kill Harry without a weapon that is not shown, or using magic against the Rules - which is what I referred to when I said he (Rashid) walks his own path - beyond the rules. I'm not sure even Eb or Langtry could stand against Rashid.

And I wasn't saying he would kick him out for being linked to the WCV as a BAD thing, but cutting him loose he may have to get allies like the WCV and being Winter Knight he brings the WCV closer to Winter. Not driving him away because you are against him - but putting him in the position where he becomes a liaison between the other two signatories. A job he likely does not take if he is still Council, and a regional commander of the Wardens. He has bigger jobs to do.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Yuillegan - I was not saying Rashid could not kill Harry - I was saying he could not kill Harry without a weapon that is not shown, or using magic against the Rules - which is what I referred to when I said he (Rashid) walks his own path - beyond the rules. I'm not sure even Eb or Langtry could stand against Rashid.

And I wasn't saying he would kick him out for being linked to the WCV as a BAD thing, but cutting him loose he may have to get allies like the WCV and being Winter Knight he brings the WCV closer to Winter. Not driving him away because you are against him - but putting him in the position where he becomes a liaison between the other two signatories. A job he likely does not take if he is still Council, and a regional commander of the Wardens. He has bigger jobs to do.
I mean if it comes time to kill somebody, he walks around with a great big stick and is quite good at knocking people out with sleep spells.
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Offline Mira

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I mean if it comes time to kill somebody, he walks around with a great big stick and is quite good at knocking people out with sleep spells.

Yeah, Rashid doesn't ask anyone to do something he can for himself..  He may be part of the Senior Council, but he is also apart from the Senior Council. Even in Turn Coat he arrived at the island ahead of the Senior Council and traveled there his own way..

Offline Snark Knight

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have to assume he was planning on using magic, against the Rules.

Immobilizing someone with magic and cutting his throat with a small concealed knife is perfectly legal for the Council
. Or, for that matter, bashing his head in with any handily available rock.

Offline Yuillegan

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I think it is way more complicated than that.  Several things are revealed in Cold Days when Harry visits the Gates and Rashid.  1] Harry realizes that Rashid is one of very few who know who his mother was. 2] Rashid says the Gates are almost constantly under attack, some years worse than others. 3] He uses the word "we" again, as in "What we need is you" 4] Rashid tells Harry he can help him[Rashid] best by going back to Chicago and being himself.5] Rashid tells Harry he knows "precisely" how it feels to be where he is. 6] Rashid says he will settle matters as far as Harry's return "from the dead" with the Council. 7]  Most important, Rashid says;
So I take that to mean, if Rashid voted Harry out, it is because he needs him in Chicago on his own because the Council, who is almost clueless about his and Harry's roles as far as Winter is concerned, is cramping Harry's style.  In other words the next few steps that have to be taken by Harry to become what he needs to become to eventually confront the Enemy, he needs to take without someone[i.e. the Council] looking over his shoulder.  That's the best case I can see for Rashid voting him off, not because he fears that Harry has gone bad.  Otherwise, Rashid was away still guarding the Gates, which had just weathered a severe attack, and the Merlin abused his proxy.

Further, in my opinion when Rashid uses "we," he means himself and the Winter Court.  I wouldn't be shocked if it turns out that Rashid was in on the planning and bargaining with the Winter Court to pursued Margaret to conceive Harry, a star born in the first place.. Heck if Lea is his fae godmother, Rashid could very well be his godfather with sacred promises to Margaret to keep her son safe.  In his own special way, Rashid had done more over the series to protect and save Harry's bacon than even his grandfather.  And yes, I know Eb took up for Harry at his trial, but it doesn't sound like Eb was under the Doom with him.. Only to execute him if he appears to go warlock..
Rashid also says some years it's quiet. But yes, that's the point I am making. If the Gatekeeper voted Harry out it isn't because he thinks Harry is a warlock, it's because he believes it's time for Harry to be free from the Council.

Grammatically, the "we" he uses implies he is including Harry and himself in that context. I think it's a given that should Winter not survive, neither of them will.

Assuming of course that Harry's birth as a starborn was planned etc. But yes, in such circumstances I too wouldn't be surprised if he were somehow involved. Yeah, Eb wasn't under the Doom. A bit of polite fiction there as Harry and others are not meant to know about the Blackstaff.

I don't think that Rashid voted to expel Harry, as I believe he would have been very busy at the Gates.  Considering differences in the flow of time, his part of the battle might not have been wrapped up by the time of the vote.  More likely, as per usual, Rashid failed to attend a meeting.  Merlin is pleased with this outcome because he gets an extra vote more often than not through the Council's proxy system.  In the end, we simply don't know at this point. 

But, I think the greater point is valid.  Rashid -- like Harry -- is "in", rather than "of" the Council.  Yes, Harry has been expelled; yes, Rashid is on the Senior Council.  But, they are both tourists essentially.  They have significant agendas that are necessarily above and beyond the concerns of the Council. 

All things being equal, each would prefer the Council be strong, united and a force for good.  However, each would happily go against the Council if it meant protecting Reality.  McCoy and even Merlin would also say the same; however, Merlin and McCoy think that what's good for the Council and what the Council thinks is good is essentially coextensive. 

Rashid, Harry and the readers know that the Council is often very parochial and far less informed than it believes. 

In fact, I'd say that McCoy and Merlin have different tactics, but actually share quite a bit of outlook. 
Time is relative. It could have been over sooner as well. It also depends on how quick the journey from the Outer Gates to Edinburgh is for Rashid. As you say though, we don't know enough. It's just a little theory. In any case, I doubt he is upset about Harry being "out" now. He predicted that Harry and the Council would go head-to-head one day. This is a big step in that direction.

I think that's fair about their roles. Harry and Rashid are far more important than the Council in the big picture. But I suspect that was originally what the Council was for - to take on all that responsibility. Along the way it's gotten corrupt and greedy and lazy, all the things that happen as organisations get too big. It's time for a reset one way or another.

Oh yes, I do think Langtry and McCoy want the same thing largely but have very different methods and ideologies. I suspect the relationship is similar to Harry and Marcone. It might even be that Marcone, if he gave up his Coin, could become the new Merlin to Harry's Gatekeeper/Blackstaff one day. But who knows if the Council will even exist much longer. I doubt Harry would want to be in it or keep it going. And Marcone is being set up as a major villain so unless that changes a lot I can't see them working together in the future. But then again, McCoy and Langtry fought on opposite sides in the French-Indian war.

Yuillegan - I was not saying Rashid could not kill Harry - I was saying he could not kill Harry without a weapon that is not shown, or using magic against the Rules - which is what I referred to when I said he (Rashid) walks his own path - beyond the rules. I'm not sure even Eb or Langtry could stand against Rashid.

And I wasn't saying he would kick him out for being linked to the WCV as a BAD thing, but cutting him loose he may have to get allies like the WCV and being Winter Knight he brings the WCV closer to Winter. Not driving him away because you are against him - but putting him in the position where he becomes a liaison between the other two signatories. A job he likely does not take if he is still Council, and a regional commander of the Wardens. He has bigger jobs to do.
Ah fair enough. I misunderstood you. Yeah I am not sure they could either - but then again I doubt they would fight in the first place.

That's an interesting theory. Publicly distancing themselves from Harry but relying on his diplomatic status and relationships to strengthen their own. Bad way to do it though as Harry is clearly pissed about it. They haven't really given much incentive for Harry to cooperate.

I mean if it comes time to kill somebody, he walks around with a great big stick and is quite good at knocking people out with sleep spells.
Or any other number of questionable methods. Immobilization, disorientation (in a dangerous environment), enchanted weaponry (like a gun with magic bullets etc). As long as his intent with the spell isn't to kill, he can get away with a lot. Which I think is rather what Maggie was going on about with her activism/rebellion.

Immobilizing someone with magic and cutting his throat with a small concealed knife is perfectly legal for the Council
. Or, for that matter, bashing his head in with any handily available rock.
Exactly. I think that Jim made a point a while back about how the Laws don't really correspond to "good" and "evil" in the first place.

I suspect this is how one could still practice black magic and not break the rules. Perhaps even become a minor warlock. I doubt the fundamental universal rules for black magic and it's taint care about the White Council's seven Laws of Magic.