Author Topic: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?  (Read 3256 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2021, 02:01:52 AM »
That's true. He's a figure from the ancient world. It's a bit of a big theory that I have which would derail this thread a bit so I will make another thread for it.

Oh, I so know what you mean. That's the really great benefit of being on these boards. So much good stuff to help you connect the dots in the series, so many intelligent people here. I would never have come up with so many of my ideas without this place either.

Offline Mira

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2021, 10:40:23 AM »
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The end goal of a fight being isn't mutually exclusive with is being a pyrrhic victory. Neither is recovery. A pyrrhic victory is merely when the price of victory comes at great cost. That's literally what happened.

Lots of victories come at great cost, but not all are pyrrhic.. They are only pyrrhic if it turns out that the battle and the price for winning it wasn't worth it.  In this case it was worth it, so it wasn't a pyrrhic victory.

Offline TrueMonk

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2021, 07:49:38 PM »
So we have the lightning/Gungnir  that points from Odin to Zeus. I think it means more because it is something he pulled out when he was under pressure.
There is also the company logo which was made up of Greek letters, but I cannot remember which. The one that Dresden concluded meant every last detail (among other things).

Is there anything else that neither fits Odin nor Kringle?

That his way is made from green lightning? Or am I mixing things?

Offline groinkick

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2021, 08:02:08 PM »
Now a conversation in the early part of Battle Ground between Ebenezar and Harry.An order of magnitude beyond that [Mab] in power and will. How much more evidence do you really need?

I concede that she is above Mab.  I'm not sure about Fero though.  He was weakened in his Earth form (I think).  He is a celestial Being, not a Mantle holder.  I think that if he had been say in the NeverNever at his full power, she'd have been less able to mess with him. 

Here is a guess, and it's only a guess.  The Hundred Hand armor did more than just protect her.  It allowed her to keep her entire Being in reality without crazy warping it.  So she was bigger than Ferro in reality, but not if he was here in his entirety.... 

It's probably just because I want to believe it, but when Jim said that the Dark Hallow would make Cowl a full on equal to Mab, he was just giving a comparison to one of the most powerful, and recognizable characters...  I mean the Titan hadn't even been shown yet.  I don't think Cowl would have been at one of the Mothers level, but maybe it was just because Ethniu didn't display much personal power.  She didn't even do magic when she wanted the Eye from Harry and Marcone. 

I just picture a Wizard with the kind of juice Cowl would have obtained melting Ethniu with something like Bane Fire. 
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Offline Mira

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2021, 08:49:01 PM »
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It's probably just because I want to believe it, but when Jim said that the Dark Hallow would make Cowl a full on equal to Mab, he was just giving a comparison to one of the most powerful, and recognizable characters...  I mean the Titan hadn't even been shown yet.  I don't think Cowl would have been at one of the Mothers level, but maybe it was just because Ethniu didn't display much personal power.  She didn't even do magic when she wanted the Eye from Harry and Marcone. 

As they say, "woulda, shoulda, coulda..."  In the end Cowl didn't have the chops so he didn't succeed..  Kind of like what Hades said about the Artifacts, it is set up so that the only one who succeed in getting them are the ones best able to wield them... Maybe Dark Hallow works the same way?  If he succeeded Cowl would have been as strong, however in his arrogance he miscalculated, so it is a moot point.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #80 on: June 13, 2021, 12:40:22 AM »
As they say, "woulda, shoulda, coulda..."  In the end Cowl didn't have the chops so he didn't succeed..  Kind of like what Hades said about the Artifacts, it is set up so that the only one who succeed in getting them are the ones best able to wield them... Maybe Dark Hallow works the same way?  If he succeeded Cowl would have been as strong, however in his arrogance he miscalculated, so it is a moot point.
Well he did have the chops in the end, he just went and tried to keep Harry alive yet again for some reason and that mercy cost him.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #81 on: June 13, 2021, 01:54:42 AM »
Lots of victories come at great cost, but not all are pyrrhic.. They are only pyrrhic if it turns out that the battle and the price for winning it wasn't worth it.  In this case it was worth it, so it wasn't a pyrrhic victory.
Well that's fair. Then again, we haven't seen all the fall out either. It might become not look so good in a few years when it become clear that battle was a turning point. Which I think Harry even says in Peace Talks, as a sort-of aside to the reader.

So we have the lightning/Gungnir  that points from Odin to Zeus. I think it means more because it is something he pulled out when he was under pressure.
There is also the company logo which was made up of Greek letters, but I cannot remember which. The one that Dresden concluded meant every last detail (among other things).

Is there anything else that neither fits Odin nor Kringle?

That his way is made from green lightning? Or am I mixing things?
The company logo could have been made of Greek letters. It was a possible interpretation of the symbol that Harry saw. The omega and iota combined. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a connection. Good pick up!

I concede that she is above Mab.  I'm not sure about Fero though.  He was weakened in his Earth form (I think).  He is a celestial Being, not a Mantle holder.  I think that if he had been say in the NeverNever at his full power, she'd have been less able to mess with him. 

Here is a guess, and it's only a guess.  The Hundred Hand armor did more than just protect her.  It allowed her to keep her entire Being in reality without crazy warping it.  So she was bigger than Ferro in reality, but not if he was here in his entirety.... 

It's probably just because I want to believe it, but when Jim said that the Dark Hallow would make Cowl a full on equal to Mab, he was just giving a comparison to one of the most powerful, and recognizable characters...  I mean the Titan hadn't even been shown yet.  I don't think Cowl would have been at one of the Mothers level, but maybe it was just because Ethniu didn't display much personal power.  She didn't even do magic when she wanted the Eye from Harry and Marcone. 

I just picture a Wizard with the kind of juice Cowl would have obtained melting Ethniu with something like Bane Fire. 
I have found a few times in the series that Jim sets up expectations which then are subverted, but not for plot purposes. Things like we are told x character is really powerful, and then Dresden dunks on them. It can make things a bit jarring.

I agree that Ferrovax would have been stronger in the Nevernever, in some ways. I feel there are always trade-offs for being on the Prime plane and in the Nevernever. But against Ethniu on a fairly neutral territory, I suspect you're probably right that Ferro would have been more of a worry for Ethniu. Especially without her toys.

I suspect you're right. My theory with the armour is that it centralizes a being, forcing all their power to bear in one point of space-time. Which makes them incredibly strong, yet vulnerable. The line about how in the light of the Swords of the Cross that Ethniu's armour made her looks stiff and slow seemed to suggest it limited her in some way. I think it made her less agile. Not in terms of athletics but in terms of her ability as a god to be in more than one place or something along those lines.

I think you're theory about the armour stopping her from collapsing reality with her presence also makes sense. Because I have wondered why reality didn't just shatter altogether when she showed up. We know Ferrovax helped with that by going to the Nevernever to keep the door closed, but that doesn't account for her very first appearance. I don't know if Ferro is bigger in the Nevernever than Ethniu...because I don't believe we have seen either of their true forms. But I'd say it's fairly close, but Ethniu had the edge in the Prime material plane.

I don't believe Ethniu was on the Mother's level though. I don't really think anyone other than the Archangels (and possibly the Walkers) are on that scale. I am entirely unsure of why the Walkers appear so weak yet Jim classed them at Uriel's level. Best to ask him. But I do think Ethniu was heading for that level, and she was doing everything she could to get there.

Cowl would never have been at the Mother's level. Not without doing a super-Darkhallow I suspect, assuming it was even possible. I agree that Ethniu didn't show much personal power, which was frustrating in hindsight. I put it down to Jim's writing choices. He didn't feel the need to show her full gamut of power, he was try to just show the power of her Eye and physical power. He also was just trying to show that she was tactically still a bit of a noob. An overpowered noob, but a noob nonetheless. Then again, I also feel Jim hasn't shown enough of Ferro's power, or Drakul, or any of the gods. Maybe my expectations are too high. But even the Lords of the Outer Night and the Red King (which someone else pointed out recently) felt a bit weak and it was see why they were a threat. That's one of the challenges of writing of course though.

Cowl using Bane Fire...would be intriguing. Assuming he could of course. I wouldn't mind learning more about the stuff and its properties.

Well he did have the chops in the end, he just went and tried to keep Harry alive yet again for some reason and that mercy cost him.
A very good point. We know the stated reason is that his death curse might spoil the workings of the spell...but I am not so sure that was it. He clearly could handle death curses. One way of doing it would simply be to create a circle around the wizard after poisoning them or something that would inevitably kill the practitioner whilst also giving enough time to put a circle around them to contain their magic. Or immerse them in running water assuming they're not a water mage.                                                                                                                                                                         

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2021, 02:32:06 AM »
Look at Mab. Her power lies in controlling Winter, not in a one to one contest between her an Cowl. Cowl, whoever he is, couldn't be as powerful as Mab, since he can't control Winter. If he could have killed her in the attack at Arctis Tor between Dead Beat and Proven Guilty when Winter was at their nadir then it would have meant more then killing her at some later point as she was more able to exercise her power.
So we have the lightning/Gungnir  that points from Odin to Zeus. I think it means more because it is something he pulled out when he was under pressure.
There is also the company logo which was made up of Greek letters, but I cannot remember which. The one that Dresden concluded meant every last detail (among other things).

Is there anything else that neither fits Odin nor Kringle?

That his way is made from green lightning? Or am I mixing things?
It also the color of Demonreach and Harry's current staff.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2021, 01:17:19 PM »
Look at Mab. Her power lies in controlling Winter, not in a one to one contest between her an Cowl. Cowl, whoever he is, couldn't be as powerful as Mab, since he can't control Winter. If he could have killed her in the attack at Arctis Tor between Dead Beat and Proven Guilty when Winter was at their nadir then it would have meant more then killing her at some later point as she was more able to exercise her power.It also the color of Demonreach and Harry's current staff.
In a sense you are correct. If you go down that route though, Mab has the "power" to end everyone by abandoning the Outer Gates. Of course, Mab doesn't have free will so she can't do such a thing and the point is moot. But she could be cornered, away from the majority of her forces, outside of Faery. Just like in Battle Ground with Ethniu.

Under such conditions is what I am looking at as well as comparing, as best I can guess, their respective baseline magical might. Difficult but not at all impossible. Also, did we confirm that Cowl was at the Arctis Tor attack or was that just a theory?

Offline Arjan

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2021, 04:53:27 PM »
In a sense you are correct. If you go down that route though, Mab has the "power" to end everyone by abandoning the Outer Gates. Of course, Mab doesn't have free will so she can't do such a thing and the point is moot. But she could be cornered, away from the majority of her forces, outside of Faery. Just like in Battle Ground with Ethniu.

Under such conditions is what I am looking at as well as comparing, as best I can guess, their respective baseline magical might. Difficult but not at all impossible. Also, did we confirm that Cowl was at the Arctis Tor attack or was that just a theory?
Nothing is confirmed about that except that if Nemesis attacked Arctis Tor and hellfire was involved. It was probably a desperate attempt to get nemesis possessed Lea back before Mab could cure her and she would reveal secrets and maybe Mab could use Nemesis possessed Lea in some other way.

For such an attempt Nemesis would gather all force it could and Cowl almost certainly would be part of that.

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Offline vultur

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #85 on: June 24, 2021, 04:08:24 AM »
Given how strongly "exponential" the high levels of power in the Dresdenverse seem to be, I doubt the Darkhallow would have given Ethniu-level power.

The power of the Darkhallow would have been that of the Erlking + a whole lot of mortal spirits and ghosts. The Erlking is distinctly weaker than Mab, though in some sense a "peer". I can see all the extra energy boosting Cowl to slightly stronger than Mab, but not vastly beyond.

Under such conditions is what I am looking at as well as comparing, as best I can guess, their respective baseline magical might.

Yeah. And the original "who could beat Mab in a fight" WOJ was specifically just her, outside Faerie, no Winter army.

The line about how in the light of the Swords of the Cross that Ethniu's armour made her looks stiff and slow seemed to suggest it limited her in some way.

I think that probably had to do with the "removing supernatural advantages/leveling the playing field" effect of the Swords - in reality, armor is limiting, so in the presence of the "fully active" Swords, Ethniu's was. I'm not sure it would have any limiting effect otherwise.

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Because I have wondered why reality didn't just shatter altogether when she showed up. We know Ferrovax helped with that by going to the Nevernever to keep the door closed, but that doesn't account for her very first appearance.

I think it's because in her first appearance she didn't use any really dramatic worldshaking power - she punched Mab through walls, but Mab was also present in a diminished non-reality-breaking form.

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I am entirely unsure of why the Walkers appear so weak yet Jim classed them at Uriel's level.
Yes, this is strange. I tend to interpret this as a matter of total potential vs. ability to effectively apply power - if Uriel is confronting a Walker outside any particular "reality" they're on par, but if a Walker is in "reality" it's limited by its rules -- and possibly what Harry encounters is not the Walker's full being but just whatever can 'slip through the cracks' into "reality".

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2021, 01:32:15 PM »
Well he did have the chops in the end, he just went and tried to keep Harry alive yet again for some reason and that mercy cost him.

We know the stated reason is that his death curse might spoil the workings of the spell...but I am not so sure that was it. He clearly could handle death curses.                                                                                                                                                                     


Cowl has also been running around for, what, something between 5-10 years from DB to the present period of the story with the knowledge of how to do a Darkhallow, and he hasn't tried again somewhere else.

Seems fishy, yeah. I'd hope there's a Watsonian reason for that, and it's not just a Doylist convenience that the antagonist is only doing anything when he's on page.

Offline Mira

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2021, 01:43:19 PM »
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Seems fishy, yeah. I'd hope there's a Watsonian reason for that, and it's not just a Doylist convenience that the antagonist is only doing anything when he's on page.

Yeah, or shock of shocks Cowl is the biggest red herring of the series.  Maybe his memory isn't that good?  He needed Evil Bob's or what appeared to be Evil Bob's help to get the spell going. Could Bob have pulled a fast one on him?  I mean did he leave something out so it wouldn't have worked even if Harry hadn't shown up on Sue?  He danced around a bit in White Night, the last time he was in the series unless I missed something, and to tell the truth, what did he do of any significance?

Offline Arjan

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2021, 02:00:57 PM »
That is assuming Cowl is still his own master. He works with outsiders and that can not end well. If he is now more or less under their control the outsiders might have their own reason not to let him try again.

Or he is now completely crazy. That is the other thing that happens when you have too much contact with outsiders in Lovecraft.

If he still needs Bob Cowl will try to steal him sooner or later.
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2021, 08:04:24 PM »
Seems fishy, yeah. I'd hope there's a Watsonian reason for that, and it's not just a Doylist convenience that the antagonist is only doing anything when he's on page.

Cowl appeared to do it because at the time he felt like he had no choice, it was a last resort.  That's how I remember it anyways.  Maybe he doesn't want to do it, and only felt he had to at the time.

Also there may be issues with it now.  It would have worked because nobody knew.  Now that others are aware of it, he might get stomped the moment he tries it. The Erlking has been made aware, and is required for the spell to work. 
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