Author Topic: Faking death  (Read 2158 times)

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1366
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Faking death
« on: April 18, 2021, 03:02:51 AM »
I am not sure why it hasn't come up before but Mirror Mirror actually gives a great big hint on how a supernatural like a wizard could reasonably fake their own death.

So, could any others from the main universe have pulled off something like that? Not just wizards even, monsters, gods etc.

Could Kemmler have done this? Could the real Kemmler be elsewhere? Could Justin?


Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Faking death
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2021, 07:30:59 AM »
Again? No,

Kemmler had his own way of evading dead, the way his pupil corpstaker tried, and the council was more careful and used a lot of fire the last time.

Justin was just not good enough. I do not think he was that good as a wizard even with Bob helping him. Getting to a mirror world should be quite complicated.

And it is something that should be staged and prepared because your mirror image won’t cooperate. Justin did not see it coming.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 07:33:24 AM by Arjan »
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1366
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Faking death
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2021, 11:46:02 AM »
Morgan suspected that Justin could have faked his death, so the possibility is there. I am far from alone in thinking it.

What's your evidence Justin wasn't good enough? By all accounts he was a capable battle wizard who was instructed by a formidable wizard, a Senior Council wizard no less.

Jim has actually revealed the method, and we already know Justin can do it because he taught Harry - all possible universes (the multiverse) are accessible through the Never never. That's how you go and find a world with Spider-Man.

I suspect it's less a matter of complexity and more a matter of knowledge. Lovecraftian mythos was all about going through gates to get to other universes. I wouldn't be surprised if it was linked to Outer Gate knowledge - remember the actual rule about the Outer Gates is not that one can't summon Outsiders, but not to seek knowledge beyond the Outer Gates. This implies there is great knowledge there.

Let's think about how Justin might have achieved it.
1. He stole his counterpart ahead of time, perhaps even years earlier and trapped his alternate self for just such an event.
2. He works with his counterpart, and together they hatch a plan. Perhaps they both draw in another alternate to fake one of their deaths.

Also, you're assuming Justin didn't see it coming. We don't know that for a fact, as we haven't ever read anything from Justin's point of view or had anything said about what Justin knew from a credible authority.

But let's not get hung up on Justin either. What about other characters?

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Faking death
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2021, 12:48:01 PM »
Harry escaping from the walker? Justin had no reason to see that coming as well and the walker did not cooperate, it took him years to get back in a for the outsiders critical time before the apocalypse.

A boy wizard defeating him in battle, a seasoned warden? No way.

Justin had no reason to think he was in danger.

Also using a mirror double demands preparation and his most logical source of information or checking information is Bob. He turned to Bob for knowledge about enthralment because He probably did not know that much about it. Bob would have been involved in the preparation and by now I would have expected some foreshadowing here.

He had no reason to suspect he could not subdue or kill Harry so there was no reason to fake his dead and certainly not to prepare for it.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1366
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Faking death
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2021, 12:14:07 AM »
These scenarios assume Justin had no foreknowledge, which is very much a thing in the Dresden Files.

As for Bob, Jim has repeatedly stated it's all about who holds him. I am not sure that Bob would be quite so "Bob" when Justin held him. Much closer to the original spirit that Kemmler used I would imagine, because that's how Justin found him.

But even if Justin didn't see any of it coming, it's still possible he did it as a final act of desperation.

There are plenty of reasons he had to fake his death, and therefore reasons to prepare for it. But this is getting too off topic.

The question originally is about who else could have pulled a counterpart from an alternate universe, and who might have already, whatever the reasons.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Faking death
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2021, 01:49:32 AM »
Of course Bob was different with Justin but not so different that he did not remember. He told Harry about Justin’s research on charm spells. I think by now Bob would have dropped a hint.

The problem is that the copy won’t cooperate to take the hit. Take Peabody. If he knew what was coming he would have left before the trial but a double would not have behaved like he did. He would have tried some excuse about restrooms and ran. So maybe he pulled a double out of his sleeve later on but when? Without Harry noticing anything strange?

So maybe he threw his ink bottle and produced the double then but I don’t think that would work because he could not jump to the nevernever from their and fooling a that many wizards and the senior council with an illusion there? Without the other Peabody trying to save himself by exposing him?

WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
Re: Faking death
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2021, 04:10:58 AM »
Harry escaping from the walker? Justin had no reason to see that coming as well and the walker did not cooperate, it took him years to get back in a for the outsiders critical time before the apocalypse.

A boy wizard defeating him in battle, a seasoned warden? No way.

Justin had no reason to think he was in danger.

Also using a mirror double demands preparation and his most logical source of information or checking information is Bob. He turned to Bob for knowledge about enthralment because He probably did not know that much about it. Bob would have been involved in the preparation and by now I would have expected some foreshadowing here.

He had no reason to suspect he could not subdue or kill Harry so there was no reason to fake his dead and certainly not to prepare for it.

His plan from beginning may have been to fake his death, and set Harry up.  Just as Molly tricked the Titan's goons into thinking they had killed her family, Justin could have just as easily have tricked Harry.  Remember that Elaine was supposed to have burned alive too.  Harry thought for a long time he had killed her.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 04:12:46 AM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1366
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Faking death
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2021, 05:56:36 AM »
Of course Bob was different with Justin but not so different that he did not remember. He told Harry about Justin’s research on charm spells. I think by now Bob would have dropped a hint.

The problem is that the copy won’t cooperate to take the hit. Take Peabody. If he knew what was coming he would have left before the trial but a double would not have behaved like he did. He would have tried some excuse about restrooms and ran. So maybe he pulled a double out of his sleeve later on but when? Without Harry noticing anything strange?

So maybe he threw his ink bottle and produced the double then but I don’t think that would work because he could not jump to the nevernever from their and fooling a that many wizards and the senior council with an illusion there? Without the other Peabody trying to save himself by exposing him?
Assuming Justin didn't make Bob hide anything from Dresden, or forget certain things. If Dresden can make Bob do that why can't Justin?

Well that depends on if the counterpart (I use that word because copy and such words implies there is an original, which in the case of multiple universes isn't necessarily true) is willing. It might not be even be necessary to get the counterpart's consent. Perhaps they could be blackmailed or enthralled.

I don't see Peabody using a double...but then again I don't see him as being as involved in things as Justin was either.

His plan from beginning may have been to fake his death, and set Harry up.  Just as Molly tricked the Titan's goons into thinking they had killed her family, Justin could have just as easily have tricked Harry.  Remember that Elaine was supposed to have burned alive too.  Harry thought for a long time he had killed her.
Quite so! An excellent example of why someone might fake a death.

Now, back to the topic.

I think there are others who easily could use counterparts.

1. Kemmler
2. Simon Pietrovich
3. Cowl - he might not even be native to Harry's universe
4. Kumori - same reasons.
5. Merlin (the original)

Not to mention supernatural creatures like Drakul.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Faking death
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2021, 06:23:12 AM »
Cowl and Kumasi can just drop their masks and buy a new one.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4202
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
Re: Faking death
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2021, 03:14:41 AM »
I believe there are two ways for a necromancer to reasonably fake their own death.  One way is to do what Corpsetaker did to Captain Lucio.  Pull a body switch during a fight an instant before the enemy strikes a fatal blow, or some variation of that move involving a body swap.  The second way to fake a death is what Alt-Harry is doing in the Mirror Mirror world; summoning almost identical copies of himself from other realities and leaving them in a position where an enemy like the White Council kills the copy while the original gets away.

I don't know this second method requires a necromancer to pull off.  However, I suspect this second method is how Kemmler kept coming back from the dead.  He was summoning other Kemmlers and allowed the White Council to kill them in order take the heat off of himself.  This created the illusion that Kemmler came back from the dead multiple times.

I think a third method, Corpestaker's soul hanging around after it's body has died and possessing another person, is just an edge case. 
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Faking death
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2021, 04:36:12 AM »
The third method is not about faking your dead, it is about returning from dead and it is a very necromancy way of doing things. I think that is what Kemmler did.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1366
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Faking death
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2021, 04:48:23 AM »
I believe there are two ways for a necromancer to reasonably fake their own death.  One way is to do what Corpsetaker did to Captain Lucio.  Pull a body switch during a fight an instant before the enemy strikes a fatal blow, or some variation of that move involving a body swap.  The second way to fake a death is what Alt-Harry is doing in the Mirror Mirror world; summoning almost identical copies of himself from other realities and leaving them in a position where an enemy like the White Council kills the copy while the original gets away.

I don't know this second method requires a necromancer to pull off.  However, I suspect this second method is how Kemmler kept coming back from the dead.  He was summoning other Kemmlers and allowed the White Council to kill them in order take the heat off of himself.  This created the illusion that Kemmler came back from the dead multiple times.

I think a third method, Corpestaker's soul hanging around after it's body has died and possessing another person, is just an edge case.
I should never have mentioned the necromancers or Justin. Derailed the whole topic lol.

I think the methods work out, although as you say I'm not convinced necromancy is required to bring counterparts from other universes. Whose to say that Kemmler didn't use a mix of techniques? He isn't Harry, why stick to the one trick? By all accounts he was a brilliant innovator. He literally wrote five books full of magical knowledge. He is in the order of the original Merlin I'd say. Monstrous of course. But very, very brilliant.

The third case actually seems like something he didn't do initially, and almost seems like something stolen directly from Warhammer with Nagash (which is where Jim got the name for Kemmler, amongst other things). Nagash is the first and greatest necromancer in the Warhammer universe, he invented it. Every time he is killed he hangs around in the spirit world and waits for the equivalent of Halloween (called Geheimesnacht in Warhammer) and then returns, and then gets killed again.

It wouldn't surprise me AT ALL, if Kemmler was using a similar trick, or if he hadn't already.

The third method is not about faking your dead, it is about returning from dead and it is a very necromancy way of doing things. I think that is what Kemmler did.
Well, it's not that black and white. If everyone believe Kemmler gone for good then it is very much like faking a death...by actually dying. A matter of semantics as it achieves the same end for Kemmler: he gets to hide in the shadows and manipulate things while everyone else thinks he is gone.



Now, in the Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny there are a number of characters who are essentially planewalkers. They cross into the "Shadows" which are the various possible universes created between Amber and the Courts of Chaos (the two poles of reality). The closer a Shadow is to Amber, the more ordered and more similar it is to Amber (Amber is the world of order). The same applies as Shadows get closer to the Courts of Chaos. There is some debate to whether the being walking into a Shadow creates that universe around them, or whether that universe was there to begin with. I believe it's a bit of a quantum entanglement issue myself, that is something that cannot be measured unless it is viewed and the viewing of it changes it. I suspect Zelazny was using that sort of idea (despite that science being relatively unknown at the time).

Anyway, in the Amber Chronicles a character called Caine literally does the whole summon a copy of himself to get murdered trick.

Now we know Jim is a big fan of the Chronicles of Amber, we know that he uses elements of it - like the scene where Harry and co. travel through the various Ways, or the White Court (which are based on Chaos creatures created in AmberMUSH, which was a roleplaying game of Amber in the 90s). He also said he had to reread it again before Peace Talks and Battle Ground, as he needed to work some stuff out.

So I'd say there is a good chance we will see more of stuff connected to Amber.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 04:52:25 AM by Yuillegan »