Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?

[Mira]

@morris Nic does have magical chops though. He pulls off that plague curse by simply having a battery and he uses the barbarus curse against Harry too. Why he doesn't use magic can be contested, but he is capable.
You somehow assume the power Merlin got was free...?

There are some things you can do even if you are vanilla if you have the right tools and recipe to pull them off.   Everyone has enough juice for that, that is why some things are kept secret and locked up. Calling up an Outsider doesn't require a lot of juice, just the right ritual.  The same with the plague curse, without the Shroud [even it was a copy] provided juice to power the curse, I don't think Nic needed any magical talent for that, just knowledge.  Same with the circle for Butters in Dead Beat, once Harry showed him how to make it, it didn't take much to power it.  That is why messing with such things are dangerous to play with, like keeping loaded guns sitting around, it doesn't take a lot of power to pull a trigger or knowledge to set one off.

[morriswalters]

If I thought Jim kept good notes and was actually aware of what he had written over time I might give more weight to what he says versus what he puts on the page.  It's one thing to write a six book series, quite another to write a 26 book series. Is this point in dispute?

In terms of magic the WOJ's are so vague as to permit magic from anyone or everyone. I'm not disputing that. But whatever talents the Fallen have act through their hosts connection to the coins.  They don't imbue any permanent change in the host. So if a host uses magic given to him by the Fallen then if he puts down the coin does he retain the magic? Can Marcone launch magic fireballs if he lays down the coin? The canon that Jim has laid down is that the Fallen corrupt with power and that by giving up the coin that you give up the power. And now we are to believe that Marcone up and exercised advanced magic after a lifetime of not having it, because, why?

@morris Nic does have magical chops though. He pulls off that plague curse by simply having a battery and he uses the barbarus curse against Harry too. Why he doesn't use magic can be contested, but he is capable.
You somehow assume the power Merlin got was free...?

He pulls off the Plague Curse by the use of a ritual just like Madge. Only two Fallen have used magic directly, Cassius and Namshiel. Nic says this at the end of Small Favor.

so Tessa has lost her sorcery teacher

This would seem to imply that all the Fallen don't know human magic out of the box. I don't assume anything about the source of his knowledge precisely, but one popular theory is that Vadderung trained Merlin.  I mean he certainly didn't go to Hogwarts. Vadderung has only given one thing up for free.

[Arjan]

Cassius lost his everlasting youth and started to age when he lost the coin but Harry can probably still use that trick to suppress pain Lash learned him.

All the fallen seem to have very specific things they can or are willing to give, lend or teach. They have different characters.

[Mira]

Cassius lost his everlasting youth and started to age when he lost the coin but Harry can probably still use that trick to suppress pain Lash learned him.

All the fallen seem to have very specific things they can or are willing to give, lend or teach. They have different characters.

Yeah,  I don't think for Namshiel to do his thing, Marcone has to have any magical talent.  The fact that he has been a member of the Accords and around magical types enough to understand what's going on, is enough for Namshiel to use him for his purposes. 

[Bad Alias]

If I thought Jim kept good notes and was actually aware of what he had written over time I might give more weight to what he says versus what he puts on the page.  It's one thing to write a six book series, quite another to write a 26 book series. Is this point in dispute?

And that's why I don't say you are wrong, but instead that I'm of a different opinion and only think you are wrong. 

But whatever talents the Fallen have act through their hosts connection to the coins.  They don't imbue any permanent change in the host. So if a host uses magic given to him by the Fallen then if he puts down the coin does he retain the magic?

A problem with coming to any firm conclusions on this one is that we really only have Harry's experience with a shadow and Cassius's aging. Cassius's magic doesn't seem to be any different than when he had the coin. He just doesn't have eternal youth and the Denarian battle form. Harry had a couple of things from Lash that are gone and some things that aren't. He doesn't have a photographic memory or the ability to understand and speak Sumerian or Etruscan. He does have the pain management technique. (I know I'm leaving stuff out). So we know some things stay and others don't. Cassius's aging is actually an example of both. If the advantage went away immediately, he'd be like the guy who "chose poorly" from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. If the advantage just stayed, he would have started aging normally, not at an accelerated rate.

So what do we do with this? We guess. I tend to think that if Marcone has the coin for long enough, and he practices magic long enough, he will develop as an extremely skilled minor talent. I don't think he'd ever have a lot of juice (excepting things like eating ghosts for power), but I do think he'd develop something.

I do think Marcone is the type of person with a strong enough will and the planning skills that he will extract enough information from Namshiel that he will be able to get along without the coin. Both methods of acquiring an independent source of magic and, if he holds the coin long enough, a source of eternal youth. Marcone isn't one to remain dependent on any one source of power.

Nothing in the books really explains how magic talent really works. Is it a muscle everyone has to some degree? If the supernatural was widely known, would most people be very minor practitioners?

Same with the circle for Butters in Dead Beat, once Harry showed him how to make it, it didn't take much to power it.

At first, you'd think this would answer my question, but it doesn't. It's Butter's blood that powers the circle. A practitioner can power the circle with the power of his mind. In the strictest sense, Butters is doing magic, but I don't think that qualifies him as a practitioner.

one popular theory is that Vadderung trained Merlin.  I mean he certainly didn't go to Hogwarts. Vadderung has only given one thing up for free.

It's stated in the books that Merlin was taught by Odin. I can't remember if it was one of the legends listed by Harry about him, or something Eb said. If Eb said it, I'm going with it's about as confirmed as anything else in the books.

What was the only thing that Vadderung gave up for free? He gave Harry some free advice in Changes and then he helped at Chichen Itza. (On a side note, just because Harry doesn't pay a price, doesn't mean it was free or without a price. Like how Harry doesn't always pay a price for Lea's help because Margaret did).

[morriswalters]

What was the only thing that Vadderung gave up for free?

I looked down at my hands. “What’s it going to cost me to find out?”

“Chichén Itzá,” Vadderung said.

I jerked my head up in surprise. I stared at the man for a moment. “I . . .”

“Don’t understand?” Vadderung asked. “It isn’t complicated. I’m on your side, boy.”

[Arjan]

Vadderung can give whatever he likes to give, he is not fae.

Traditionally he will help heroes to greatness and arrange their killing in battle so they can go to Valhalla.

[Mira]

At first, you'd think this would answer my question, but it doesn't. It's Butter's blood that powers the circle. A practitioner can power the circle with the power of his mind. In the strictest sense, Butters is doing magic, but I don't think that qualifies him as a practitioner.

Harry tells Butters anyone can do it, a circle keeps out magic.  It isn't really doing magic, because Butters argues that he doesn't know magic, and Harry tells him it really isn't.  Maybe the best way to think of it is it is a threshold, only in the round and protects the one standing inside it.  It only keeps out magic though, physical things can still cross it according to Harry, so it was the most basic of circles.

[Bad Alias]

Harry tells Butters anyone can do it, a circle keeps out magic.  It isn't really doing magic, because Butters argues that he doesn't know magic, and Harry tells him it really isn't.  Maybe the best way to think of it is it is a threshold, only in the round and protects the one standing inside it.  It only keeps out magic though, physical things can still cross it according to Harry, so it was the most basic of circles.

Yeah, while setting up a magic circle that way is obviously "doing magic," it's also not doing magic in the sense of having any innate magical abilities. Jim hasn't really provided a vocabulary to distinguish different forms of magic, but I think the there are clearly different kinds. For example, the Alphas are doing something different from Harry (or even LtW), and Bob is doing yet another thing.

I'd say we could call what Harry, and even small time and focused practitioners, do wizardry. For example Hanna Ascher is doing what Harry does, but only with fire magic. It's implied that there are plenty of smaller practitioners that can do all sorts of stuff, but don't have the power, knowledge, and/or experience to be considered a wizard. Then there are people like the Alphas who can do one thing and can't do anything else. (I think it's stated or implied in the Paranet Papers that learning to be werewolves cut them off from being able to do other kinds of magic. I don't really remember, but my brother says so, and I have no reason to doubt him). Then there are a variety of magical creatures that do supernatural stuff, i.e., magic. But that stuff is pretty clearly not what Harry's doing.

This debate about Denarians is a good example. They are all clearly doing magic, but most of them are also clearly not slinging a good variety of spells like a wizard. Is that because they can't or because they just choose not to?

[Mira]

At first, you'd think this would answer my question, but it doesn't. It's Butter's blood that powers the circle. A practitioner can power the circle with the power of his mind. In the strictest sense, Butters is doing magic, but I don't think that qualifies him as a practitioner.

Does it, is putting up a threshold in your house doing magic?  Apparently it stops a lot of supernatural stuff from passing through if there a strong sense of "family" established living there. The people who live there have no magical powers, yet their living there has a magical effect.

[Bad Alias]

Does it, is putting up a threshold in your house doing magic?  Apparently it stops a lot of supernatural stuff from passing through if there a strong sense of "family" established living there. The people who live there have no magical powers, yet their living there has a magical effect.

We can't rely on the circle=threshold analogy. We know where a circle comes from. Wizards in the DF don't know where a threshold comes from. A circle is power+will. That's what Harry teaches Butters. It's Butters' will plus his blood. A threshold might be will made manifest. If it was it would be the same as a threshold, but we don't know.

A magic circle is definitely magic.

[Mira]

We can't rely on the circle=threshold analogy. We know where a circle comes from. Wizards in the DF don't know where a threshold comes from. A circle is power+will. That's what Harry teaches Butters. It's Butters' will plus his blood. A threshold might be will made manifest. If it was it would be the same as a threshold, but we don't know.

A magic circle is definitely magic.

Yet Harry says it isn't.  Or perhaps he meant that it is so basic that anyone can do it.

"Harry.  I don't know magic."
"Anyone can do this

[morriswalters]

Blood has power, all blood. In blood rites they bleed Shiro to power the curse.  Jim has a thing for blood. Therefore he uses it a lot. But if anybody can do magic then magic isn't special anymore.  So Butters ability to empower a magic circle is consistent with that without him needing to be able to do serious magic.

[Fcrate]

Let me just say that this is the only part of the plot that I completely hated. Well that and Marcone manifesting a Banner, a few chapters after Mab told Harry that this banner is an aspect of being a winter knight that only a few have had the strength to manifest. What... If you have enough people willing to follow you into battle you immediately gain intellectus over them? Doesn't make sense. Especially since most of Marcone's followers are hired muscle, not believers in a cause.
A minor talent after some training by a Fallen is more in line with what we've seen so far from the series. We've seen in Even Hand that Marcone has had sufficient counter measures against the eventual attack by Harry. Some wards by Gard and special ammunition, and according to the time line, this is after he's had access to the coin.  And now he's a magical heavy hitter with nigh immortality as well? Not to mention that even the Knights of the cross will fall by the hundreds to him if they ever faced him, as they're obliged to give him a chance to repent.
On a slight tangent, this makes Hendricks' sacrifice seem pointless, had he the relevant information, he'd still be alive by now.

[Arjan]

I do not think he is the magical heavy hitter.