Author Topic: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?  (Read 29659 times)

Offline toodeep

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #150 on: November 18, 2020, 03:27:26 PM »
What I really want is another short story, "Field Trip," where Harry takes a bunch of people who need to know what is on the line to the outer gates - Fix is the most important to take, probably Butters to be a communicator, and Carlos out of hope of repairing the relationship.  Maybe Billy just because he deserves the trust.  Maybe Lara if she isn't clued in, though I suspect she is and bringing her along would weaken the outreach to Carlos.

Such a trip isn't really letting any secret out of the bag, since all the power players know it.  And it gives a reason for Harry to be a monster and for others to help him.  Fix really needs to know that while there are times that Winter and Summer are enemies, that there are also times they are allies for a good reason.  And I think that if Carlos can see Harry getting along with the Summer Knight, see a reason for Harry to be helping Mab, and see a knight of the cross along vouching for Harry, that might go a long way to bringing Carlos back in the fold. 

Offline Regenbogen

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #151 on: November 18, 2020, 03:38:21 PM »
This would be a good idea. Some people really need to know what is at stake.

Offline Mira

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #152 on: November 18, 2020, 04:02:07 PM »
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What I really want is another short story, "Field Trip," where Harry takes a bunch of people who need to know what is on the line to the outer gates - Fix is the most important to take, probably Butters to be a communicator, and Carlos out of hope of repairing the relationship.  Maybe Billy just because he deserves the trust.  Maybe Lara if she isn't clued in, though I suspect she is and bringing her along would weaken the outreach to Carlos.

I don't know if that is possible, it was a big deal when Mother Summer took Harry to the Gates.  Rashid said it was unusual for someone as young as Harry to manage the trip, even with Mother Summer as a guide, and that he must take after his mother.  Maybe Harry could do it, but not sure if he has that much pull yet.  Also something clear when Harry visited, until he saw them in person he thought that were a metaphor and not real.

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Such a trip isn't really letting any secret out of the bag, since all the power players know it.  And it gives a reason for Harry to be a monster and for others to help him.  Fix really needs to know that while there are times that Winter and Summer are enemies, that there are also times they are allies for a good reason.  And I think that if Carlos can see Harry getting along with the Summer Knight, see a reason for Harry to be helping Mab, and see a knight of the cross along vouching for Harry, that might go a long way to bringing Carlos back in the fold. 

Well, Harry did tell him that he'd feel foolish for believing what he believes, but I think it will take a while.  Maybe if Harry can save Chandler?

Offline Dina

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #153 on: November 18, 2020, 05:08:18 PM »
Yes, that is all very, very true but, again, Harry has not done anything to show that he has changed. There is no trail of bodies that Harry left in Mab's name. He still frequented Thomas, but he did that before. He did not see Lara (I am talking about the beginning of PT). He still frequents the Knights. He frequents Murphy more than before. Nothing in his behavior says "he became dark side". So yes, I fully understand being wary and cautious. Tracking spell? Voting him out the Council? Not so much.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #154 on: November 18, 2020, 06:04:19 PM »
Yes, that is all very, very true but, again, Harry has not done anything to show that he has changed. There is no trail of bodies that Harry left in Mab's name. He still frequented Thomas, but he did that before. He did not see Lara (I am talking about the beginning of PT). He still frequents the Knights. He frequents Murphy more than before. Nothing in his behavior says "he became dark side". So yes, I fully understand being wary and cautious. Tracking spell? Voting him out the Council? Not so much.
Out of sight. That was why his bodyguard detail was a trap, he could not go to Edinburgh to talk to people. He did not maintain his contacts in the white council so any rumor about him became more believable.

Then he was secretive. All wizards are secretive but if there is suspicion it will only make it worse. And then he boinked with Lara. Big red flag. Especially with Carlos who soul gazed Lara in white night and knows what a monster she is.

And as usual when everything goes to hell he is away doing personal stuff. We saw Ebenezer’s reaction to that. With Lara.

His winter knight strength is also a red flag. Monsters are physically strong, not wizards.

But the real decision came at the end after he took the eye of Balor obviously because he did not trust the white council with it.

Oh and toot scared the hell out of them too. He has a whole army now.

Mab is not that impressed by the white council now.
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Offline Dina

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #155 on: November 18, 2020, 06:18:38 PM »
He was with Lara much later. The plan of taking him off the council was already in movement, as Eb told him at his place. But with the rest, I agree.

Mab should be pleased, those stupid free her Knight of a lot of boundaries now.

But the real, definite proof that the Council is in the wrong is Michael's reaction. When in doubt, look at Michael (and Mouse, if you can).
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Offline Arjan

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #156 on: November 18, 2020, 06:34:59 PM »
He was with Lara much later. The plan of taking him off the council was already in movement, as Eb told him at his place. But with the rest, I agree.

Mab should be pleased, those stupid free her Knight of a lot of boundaries now.

But the real, definite proof that the Council is in the wrong is Michael's reaction. When in doubt, look at Michael (and Mouse, if you can).
Oh they are wrong but that does not mean they know they are wrong. And we do not know what support Harry still has in the council.
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Offline Mira

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #157 on: November 18, 2020, 06:53:33 PM »
Yes, that is all very, very true but, again, Harry has not done anything to show that he has changed. There is no trail of bodies that Harry left in Mab's name. He still frequented Thomas, but he did that before. He did not see Lara (I am talking about the beginning of PT). He still frequents the Knights. He frequents Murphy more than before. Nothing in his behavior says "he became dark side". So yes, I fully understand being wary and cautious. Tracking spell? Voting him out the Council? Not so much.

I totally agree, no reason to put that tracking dot on him without warning.  Unless he did it to prove a point to someone else that Harry hasn't gone dark, but there is no evidence of that.

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Out of sight. That was why his bodyguard detail was a trap, he could not go to Edinburgh to talk to people. He did not maintain his contacts in the white council so any rumor about him became more believable.
Except he has never done that, that is one reason why he never came in contact with Peabody's ink and influence.  Rashid filled out the paperwork for him after Cold Days, so that is a big contact.  Actually it might be considered suspicious if Harry suddenly did hang out in Edinburgh and got close, close...   
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Then he was secretive. All wizards are secretive but if there is suspicion it will only make it worse. And then he boinked with Lara. Big red flag. Especially with Carlos who soul gazed Lara in white night and knows what a monster she is.

But he never boinked Lara, the illusion that he did all happened after Carlos put the dot on his wrist, and after the sex scan, done without permission I might add.  It only confirmed he had had sex recently, not with whom..
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His winter knight strength is also a red flag. Monsters are physically strong, not wizards.

Why?  The mantle gives him physical strength, that doesn't make him a monster.  When Listens to Wind transforms himself into a grizzly bear, he is extremely strong with the teeth and claws to back that up, does that make him a monster?  With his magic, Eb can move half a mountain, does that make him a monster?
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But the real decision came at the end after he took the eye of Balor obviously because he did not trust the white council with it.
No, he doesn't, and if the White Council wants the Eye they went about getting it the wrong way.  However we really don't know the real reason why the Council wanted to get rid of Harry.
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Oh and toot scared the hell out of them too. He has a whole army now.

Yeah, I am not sure why that scared them so much unless they now know they can't just bully Harry into compliance.
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Mab is not that impressed by the white council now.

If she ever was? Which I doubt, however she is sure of one thing, the Council is afraid of Harry.. They got rid of the wolf that they are going to need down the road.

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Oh they are wrong but that does not mean they know they are wrong. And we do not know what support Harry still has in the council.

That is true, oh I think Harry still has some support, Eb, Listens to Wind, and Rashid.. But when the vote came down two were in surgery and the third occupied with keeping the Gates safe.  Unsure how deep Martha's support runs without Eb being present, but she has to know the service Harry performed during the battle.  I am also not all that certain that Christos is so much against Harry now, but I'd say it was either him or Carlos who testified against Harry. However it still all could be a sham, because if they believed it, there would be no suspended death sentence..  It would be simple, death by Blackstaff.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 06:55:13 PM by Mira »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #158 on: November 18, 2020, 07:00:15 PM »
What I really want is another short story, "Field Trip," where Harry takes a bunch of people who need to know what is on the line to the outer gates - Fix is the most important to take, probably Butters to be a communicator, and Carlos out of hope of repairing the relationship.  Maybe Billy just because he deserves the trust.  Maybe Lara if she isn't clued in, though I suspect she is and bringing her along would weaken the outreach to Carlos.

Such a trip isn't really letting any secret out of the bag, since all the power players know it.  And it gives a reason for Harry to be a monster and for others to help him.  Fix really needs to know that while there are times that Winter and Summer are enemies, that there are also times they are allies for a good reason.  And I think that if Carlos can see Harry getting along with the Summer Knight, see a reason for Harry to be helping Mab, and see a knight of the cross along vouching for Harry, that might go a long way to bringing Carlos back in the fold.
If the senior council needed to know and it was safe to tell them, they would know, because Rashid would have told them.  Rashid hides what he is from the Council, because he would be subject to attack away from the gates if it was revealed who and what he is.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #159 on: November 18, 2020, 07:27:10 PM »
Out of sight. That was why his bodyguard detail was a trap, he could not go to Edinburgh to talk to people. He did not maintain his contacts in the white council so any rumor about him became more believable.

Then he was secretive. All wizards are secretive but if there is suspicion it will only make it worse. And then he boinked with Lara. Big red flag. Especially with Carlos who soul gazed Lara in white night and knows what a monster she is.

And as usual when everything goes to hell he is away doing personal stuff. We saw Ebenezer’s reaction to that. With Lara.

His winter knight strength is also a red flag. Monsters are physically strong, not wizards.

But the real decision came at the end after he took the eye of Balor obviously because he did not trust the white council with it.

Oh and toot scared the hell out of them too. He has a whole army now.

Mab is not that impressed by the white council now.
She was throwing shade at them for how they were acting with regards to Harry as early as Cold Days, picking 45 of all songs for his birthday party.

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Offline toodeep

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #160 on: November 18, 2020, 07:30:39 PM »
If the senior council needed to know and it was safe to tell them, they would know, because Rashid would have told them.  Rashid hides what he is from the Council, because he would be subject to attack away from the gates if it was revealed who and what he is.

To some degree I agree with this, but remember Nemesis knows who Rashid is, so all of his real enemies, the people who would want to kill him for being the gatekeeper already want to, whether the council talks about the Gates or not.  I think the council doesn't talk about it because the less information about outsiders the better in terms of most wizards - i.e. if they don't even know about them they can't mess with them.  But that is all falling apart as the Outsiders are obviously becoming extremely active about wanting in, and we've seen that three different Walkers are active inside reality now.  The time for keeping things secret passed several books ago.  The entire idea that you shouldn't talk about nemesis because it might hear you is kinda bunk, because that's assuming that it doesn't know that the faerie queens and great powers know what it is and oppose it.  Look at how wrong things went because Lily was never brought up to speed about it from a trustworthy source?  I can't help but wonder how Nemesis would fare against a knight of the cross, i.e. can they detect a Nemesis infection?  If Butters saw Justine at the end there, would she have had a big glowing exclamation point (or whatever the enemy has to his senses) over her head?  Can the sword free someone from Nemesis infection?

Offline toodeep

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #161 on: November 18, 2020, 07:42:00 PM »
Quote from: Mira link=topic=53912.msg2339416#msg2339416
That is true, oh I think Harry still has some support, Eb, Listens to Wind, and Rashid.. But when the vote came down two were in surgery and the third occupied with keeping the Gates safe.  Unsure how deep Martha's support runs without Eb being present, but she has to know the service Harry performed during the battle.  I am also not all that certain that Christos is so much against Harry now, but I'd say it was either him or Carlos who testified against Harry. However it still all could be a sham, because if they believed it, there would be no suspended death sentence..  It would be simple, death by Blackstaff.
I think it is quite possible that Eb did not support him in the recent vote.  Interestingly enough, it sure looked like the vote came after the events in Chicago (since Carlos had time to go, and then come back days later to report the results) rather than simultaneously, so it is possible Harry could have gone and defended himself if he hadn't been so smashed to bits by the fighting.

Eb warned Harry about how people would be betraying him, and Harry gave Eb all kinds of reason to be angry with him in PT.  So I suspect Eb was on the "kick em out" train as a way of giving "tough love" to try to bring Harry back.  It might be interesting to see who was in Harry's camp.  I think LtW was (because he respects River Shoulders and River Shoulders certainly trusts Harry).  I wonder if Mai might be if she has done anything to follow up on the fact that he has a foo dog ally.  While the Merlin has never liked Harry, I could see Harry's help in the case against Morgan bearing fruit eventually, though probably not here.  (i.e. I suspect if the Merlin had want it shot down it would have been shot down).  Heck, depending on how allied with Winter he is, even the Gatekeeper might have  voted against Harry under the idea that he needed to be freed of the Council restrictions to be of more help to Mab.  I think we'll learn more about this vote later....

Though the idea that Carlos seems to blame all the deaths in Chicago on Harry just boggles my mind.  In what world could he have prevented the attack of an entire nation of evil beings the Council had essentially been at war with for several years?  And then when he actually did stop the big bad... they throw him out and Carlos agrees with it?  That is just ridiculous.

Offline forumghost

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #162 on: November 18, 2020, 07:52:59 PM »
I think it is quite possible that Eb did not support him in the recent vote.  Interestingly enough, it sure looked like the vote came after the events in Chicago (since Carlos had time to go, and then come back days later to report the results) rather than simultaneously, so it is possible Harry could have gone and defended himself if he hadn't been so smashed to bits by the fighting.

Eb warned Harry about how people would be betraying him, and Harry gave Eb all kinds of reason to be angry with him in PT.  So I suspect Eb was on the "kick em out" train as a way of giving "tough love" to try to bring Harry back.  It might be interesting to see who was in Harry's camp.

IIRC according to Carlos the vote was unanimous, but was also held while Eb and LTW were in Hospital.

Offline Mira

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #163 on: November 18, 2020, 08:00:11 PM »
IIRC according to Carlos the vote was unanimous, but was also held while Eb and LTW were in Hospital.

Not just in the hospital, in surgery, so unless they both had locals, no communication from either of them. 

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Though the idea that Carlos seems to blame all the deaths in Chicago on Harry just boggles my mind.  In what world could he have prevented the attack of an entire nation of evil beings the Council had essentially been at war with for several years?  And then when he actually did stop the big bad... they throw him out and Carlos agrees with it?  That is just ridiculous.

Mine also, but it just underscores the fact that Carlos isn't thinking straight.  It is almost as if he is being mind controlled. 

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #164 on: November 18, 2020, 08:13:21 PM »
Yes, I don't think Carlos is evil or that he is BC, but he can be a)nemfected (I hope not. I really don't like the "everyone is infected" trope). b)manipulated. I think at some point he will realize that b) is right and something will happen to make him a believer again. Remember, Butters began like that and now is like the stepping stone of the Dresden Church  :)


Nemfection is credible in his case though, or a mind-whammy from the black council.

He's got grounds for some hurt feelings about the Molly incident and the lack of contact from Harry since Changes, but he's not previously been a stupid character. If he thinks two active and one retired KOTC are friendly with a monster and he hasn't been subjected to some sort of influence to cause that, frankly Jim has handed the character the idiot ball.