It's all Mab's fault! (Battle Ground Spoilers)

[Mira]

The angels are Michael's retirement package.

Michael and his family weren't there.

Hence, no smiting was necessary. I think this would have been a bit of a borderline case, so Molly did Uriel a favour by avoiding the need for smiting.

Molly moved them across the street to her house because Listen and company could get past the angel guard.  That is what the Titan thought she was showing him, but it was an illusion sent by Molly, only she left out Mouse, and Harry knew that they'd only got to Maggie over Mouse's dead body and he wasn't to be seen, so he knew the vision was fake, maintained his focus and will.
But if they hadn't been moved, it sounds like Listen and Company could have gotten past the angels just like Nic's guys were able to.

[Avernite]

Molly moved them across the street to her house because Listen and company could get past the angel guard.  That is what the Titan thought she was showing him, but it was an illusion sent by Molly, only she left out Mouse, and Harry knew that they'd only got to Maggie over Mouse's dead body and he wasn't to be seen, so he knew the vision was fake, maintained his focus and will.
But if they hadn't been moved, it sounds like Listen and Company could have gotten past the angels just like Nic's guys were able to.

It sounds like. But, I think it was a borderline case, and hence the lack of smiting doesn't PROVE they're too human.

Either Molly's favour is the Angels don't have to smite in dodgy circumstances, or they don't have to let bad guys get away with bad things on their watch. Either way, they got a favour done.

[Dina]

I think what proves that they are human is that Molly needed to do the moving. The bad guys know about Michael's retirement package. If they risked go to the house is because they thought they were safe.

[Arjan]

I think what proves that they are human is that Molly needed to do the moving. The bad guys know about Michael's retirement package. If they risked go to the house is because they thought they were safe.

The line between human and not human is sometimes a bit vague because it is an arbitrary line. It is entirely possible that the line drawn by the angels differs from the line drawn by the white council. And even that line might be different under circumstances, that is who is accused by who and who has the right connections.

[Mira]

The line between human and not human is sometimes a bit vague because it is an arbitrary line. It is entirely possible that the line drawn by the angels differs from the line drawn by the white council. And even that line might be different under circumstances, that is who is accused by who and who has the right connections.

 In the case of the Turtlenecks they started out human, were kidnapped by the Fomor and were genetically altered so they could live under water, they have gills, that is what their turtlenecks hide.
So mortal? Yes.. But still human? Who knows?

[Arjan]

In the case of the Turtlenecks they started out human, were kidnapped by the Fomor and were genetically altered so they could live under water, they have gills, that is what their turtlenecks hide.
So mortal? Yes.. But still human? Who knows?

The physical changes might not even be the most important. Their minds are also changed.

[Snark Knight]

The physical changes might not even be the most important. Their minds are also changed.

Which is why I think it's pretty BS that Ramirez went along with the Council's party line that the Turtlenecks are human for 'screw Harry' purposes, after encouraging Molly to go all out against the mutated cultists who had been colonized by outsider servants in Cold Case. He's verging on villain at this point.

[morriswalters]

A monster tried to eat him and you know what they say, all monsters look alike.

[Arjan]

Which is why I think it's pretty BS that Ramirez went along with the Council's party line that the Turtlenecks are human for 'screw Harry' purposes, after encouraging Molly to go all out against the mutated cultists who had been colonized by outsider servants in Cold Case. He's verging on villain at this point.

Council law is somewhat flexible so it can be used by council politics to get the desired effect. There is no separation of powers in the white council. As soon as they decide you are a warlock everything is allowed and they think they are right. They basically told Harry he isn’t human anymore.

And Ramirez believes the party line. He thinks it is necessary.

[Mira]

Which is why I think it's pretty BS that Ramirez went along with the Council's party line that the Turtlenecks are human for 'screw Harry' purposes, after encouraging Molly to go all out against the mutated cultists who had been colonized by outsider servants in Cold Case. He's verging on villain at this point.

Considering that Carlos vaporized a fair share of them, himself, and nobody is accusing him of breaking the First Law. 

[Bad Alias]

Murphy's death was IMO one of the best written parts of both books. A little wordy over the empty house bit but still well written. Harry's response as well as the Knights response was also well written.

The death part really fell flat to me. Very little impact. It was everything after, related to the death, that hit me.

Technically, I would think so, since it would be deliberate and not an accident.

Everything Jim has said on the subject leads to the conclusion that accidents don't make it not a 1st law violation. It might mitigate it.

They aren't exactly human anymore, they have gills, or can they get through simply because they are mortal?

They might be human enough for the angels. Maybe the 1st law too. I tend to think that the 1st law "no killing" might be a mistranslation like how many people mistranslate the commandment as "thou shall not kill" when it's actually "thou shall not murder." If self defense and defense of others from black magic are a justification or exception to the general rule, then maybe there are others. It wouldn't line up neatly with our distinction between murder and "killing," but it might be close.

Arjan makes a good point that since no one was there, we can't be definitive as to why they weren't smote.

The line between human and not human is sometimes a bit vague because it is an arbitrary line.

It might be a hard line that's just very complicated and hard to discern.

Considering that Carlos vaporized a fair share of them, himself, and nobody is accusing him of breaking the First Law.

Did he? Or did he vaporize some other Fomor combatants? I'll really have no idea.

And there's another issue. Is it human or mortal that we need to worry about? And what's the dividing line there?