Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

For a number of reasons it sounded contrived.  The first thing, why in the hell was it a I.A. investigation?  Both Harry and Murphy were civilians, no longer connected with the police force, and they were also both civilians when the supposed crimes were committed.  Bradley didn't understand why they were there.  If they were homicide, it would be different, Rudolph also sounded off from the get go.

OK, that's... plausible. There is some unknown hand in play, who want it to be I.A., as it wants Rudolph in. I can agree with that.
But that's like another thread - this is prove of someone trying to hound Harry and Murphy, without better evidence it's hard to connect it to Harry bumping on Rudolph during battle. Unless it's all planned on some really impressive level - and then I want really good explanation because this is level of mastermind Mab would be shamed by.

So it's like bit different thing - someone using IA to hound Dresden for Skin Game is like fair contrievance - I mean someone is there. Not what happened in Battle Ground.

I just had a thought about Carlos, I wonder if part of his bitterness stems not just from the fact that he really didn't, understand how it works with Winter Ladies, but doesn't know that neither did Molly.  Worse yet, does he think because Harry is Winter Knight he may have access where he doesn't?

I mean really - how is Winter Lady perpetual virginity even held out as a secret.
Somehow it is - I mean Maeve was reccuring character for a long time, and I would never thought she's somehow limited in this area.

I don't know if writing it from someone else's point of view would have made that much difference over all.  I've read Aftermath, Bombshells, and Backup, all three supposedly from another point of view, but they all sound the same.  It is like Jim can write Murphy from Harry's point of view, but cannot get inside her head for it to sound like her, to me it still sounds like Harry with Murphy's voice.  If that makes any sense?

Yeah I agree. It's probably because it's Jim inner monologue really

[Mira]

So it's like bit different thing - someone using IA to hound Dresden for Skin Game is like fair contrievance - I mean someone is there. Not what happened in Battle Ground.

That is why after Peace Talks came out I wrote that I really thought the chapter with Rudy and Bradley showing up at Murphy's house was a real WTF moment.  Given that almost everyone and his uncle seemed to be on Harry's case at once, giving Peace Talks a real scatter shot feel, I felt the whole freeing Thomas thing was a waste of time.  I would have rathered that actual peace talks took place, lots of heavy negotiations and concessions, and just when they think things are coming together, then the Titan shows up.

I also think the check point scene in Battle Field did two things.  It established that Rudy was paranoid and had some agenda in his back pocket against Harry and Murphy.  It also established that he had terrible trigger discipline, setting the stage for the shot heard around the world.

 The soul gaze with Bradley was also interesting, it set things up for future books.  It established that Bradley was a strong steady kind of man, very much in the mold of Michael, perhaps a Holy Sword is in his future.  It also established him as a sane, repeatable witness to Rudy's madness when and if the shooting of Murphy is brought up and prosecuted at a later date.  He can also establish that Harry isn't a terrorist, and perhaps character witness if somehow charges for what went down in Skin Game is prosecuted.  I see one way or the other courtroom drama ahead.

I mean really - how is Winter Lady perpetual virginity even held out as a secret.
Somehow it is - I mean Maeve was reccuring character for a long time, and I would never thought she's somehow limited in this area.

Yeah, Maeve's behavior suggested otherwise, but then again she could have been just expressing her sexual frustration.  I do have a theory that Mab had kept that important little bit of information from Molly for a reason.  She knows that Molly has feelings for Harry.  She also knows that Harry's feelings for her are complicated, part big a brother, and she's the daughter of my best friend. But he is also part sexually attracted because she is built like a brick outhouse in an apple orchid. Both Harry and the Winter Knight's mantle have noticed.  So what better way to demo to Molly that she must remain a virgin without risking her Winter Knight?

[Arjan]

Yeah, Maeve's behavior suggested otherwise, but then again she could have been just expressing her sexual frustration. 

Or it was her way to kill people she did not like. Oops the mantle, nothing I can do about it, not my fault.

And we know from Sarissa in Cold Days that Maeve's boyfriends did not survive most of the time.

I do have a theory that Mab had kept that important little bit of information from Molly for a reason.  She knows that Molly has feelings for Harry.  She also knows that Harry's feelings for her are complicated, part big a brother, and she's the daughter of my best friend. But he is also part sexually attracted because she is built like a brick outhouse in an apple orchid. Both Harry and the Winter Knight's mantle have noticed.  So what better way to demo to Molly that she must remain a virgin without risking her Winter Knight?

Probably just because she knew from studying Molly and others that telling her something was not enough. She needs to experience it.

[Dina]

I have to say that the main point I agree with the OP is the Thomas thing. It is indeed very weird. But the part about the child in danger? There are three reasons for that. One is that he is nemfected. Second, what is told in the first chapter of PT, it is difficult to give birth to a whampire (but it seems that would be more a danger for Justine than for the baby). And the third, Nem-Justine could decide that the baby overcome his/her utility and get rid of him/her (before or after the birth).

The rest, as I said, I loved the battle scenes. I am about to reread them and looking forward to it.

[Telynn]

Probably just because she knew from studying Molly and others that telling her something was not enough. She needs to experience it.

Didn’t Mab say as much to Molly? Something like I tried to tell you but you didn’t listen?

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

That is why after Peace Talks came out I wrote that I really thought the chapter with Rudy and Bradley showing up at Murphy's house was a real WTF moment.  Given that almost everyone and his uncle seemed to be on Harry's case at once, giving Peace Talks a real scatter shot feel, I felt the whole freeing Thomas thing was a waste of time.  I would have rathered that actual peace talks took place, lots of heavy negotiations and concessions, and just when they think things are coming together, then the Titan shows up.

I agree. If Butcher wanted to get rid of both Thomas and Murphy in one book, really he could just well smash Thomas in early stage of battle so hard, it would end the same.

I also think the check point scene in Battle Field did two things.  It established that Rudy was paranoid and had some agenda in his back pocket against Harry and Murphy.  It also established that he had terrible trigger discipline, setting the stage for the shot heard around the world.

Well yes. And that's why I have problem with it - it has too much estabilishing. Very very obvious Checkhov's gun.

The soul gaze with Bradley was also interesting, it set things up for future books.  It established that Bradley was a strong steady kind of man, very much in the mold of Michael, perhaps a Holy Sword is in his future.  It also established him as a sane, repeatable witness to Rudy's madness when and if the shooting of Murphy is brought up and prosecuted at a later date.  He can also establish that Harry isn't a terrorist, and perhaps character witness if somehow charges for what went down in Skin Game is prosecuted.  I see one way or the other courtroom drama ahead.

To some extent but I doubt we'll ever have court drama over Murphy I must say. Rather I see Bradley as making Rudolph's life in police problematic by non-overt methods if anything.

I have to say that the main point I agree with the OP is the Thomas thing. It is indeed very weird. But the part about the child in danger? There are three reasons for that. One is that he is nemfected. Second, what is told in the first chapter of PT, it is difficult to give birth to a whampire (but it seems that would be more a danger for Justine than for the baby). And the third, Nem-Justine could decide that the baby overcome his/her utility and get rid of him/her (before or after the birth).

Nah, my point was different.
Why even child. NemJustine could easily just blackmail Thomas with her own life, because apparently he was absolute dumbass in this regard.
And I mean if Thomas could stop Nemesis from hurting Justine, he could do the same with pregnant Justine overall.

Also I still think at these moment, after all this bullshit Thomas just going with it is dumbest thing possible. He saw what Outsiders are doing. He should sheme with Dresden into tricking Nemesis and somehow getting rid of it, not just allowing it to get great opening.

Now that would be great thing - Thomas and Dresden trying to double cross He Who Walks Beside, and then Ethniu just crushing entire thing in a middle. Really Butcher - fact than in almost each novel especially later Harry has strong personal hook inside that keep him pushing around is not that endearing anymore. Let him take war on their turf, or at least try.

[Mira]

Nah, my point was different.
Why even child. NemJustine could easily just blackmail Thomas with her own life, because apparently he was absolute dumbass in this regard.
And I mean if Thomas could stop Nemesis from hurting Justine, he could do the same with pregnant Justine overall.

I don't think the child was ever in danger, only Justine because apparently the Hunger Demon fetus has to feed as well as the human one, so usually the mother doesn't survive the birth.  My question is did Thomas even know it was Nemesis?  Or HWWBs for that matter?  And just what was he promised?  Second obvious point, why was he beaten to the point to where finding out who was behind the plot was impossible?  Two important clues right off, something off about Justine's when Harry told her about Thomas, and it took a mortal to call up the corner hounds.. Then that all got buried in a sea of upset grandpas and the White Council going to toss him out on his ear yet again, and orders to do Lara's bidding because of favors owed the Winter Court.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

I don't think the child was ever in danger, only Justine because apparently the Hunger Demon fetus has to feed as well as the human one, so usually the mother doesn't survive the birth.

Well yes but that would happen even without Nemesis around.

My question is did Thomas even know it was Nemesis?  Or HWWBs for that matter?  And just what was he promised?

Yeah if it was simple threat - really it's beyond stupidity to not try a trick.

Second obvious point, why was he beaten to the point to where finding out who was behind the plot was impossible?

Yeah. Really if it was all that straightforward as written in PT/BG without any extra hook to discover later I'm gonna be extra angry. And somehow I strongly suspect it is.

[Dina]

Even when I think not telling Harry is beyond dumn from Thomas part, let's ask something. When was Thomas blackmailed? I mean, did he know what he was going to do when he was running with Harry? When he was showing teeth to grandpa? If he was forced to act immediately and he was afraid somone had him under surveillance. he may have gone to the Embassy hoping to find Harry there. But Harry was not there (in part delayed by his own sister), so he tried to pretend he was attacking Etri but really he intended to fail. Only Austri throw himself over to protect his king and he couldn't prevent his death. Then he was horrified, shocked and we know what happened.

But if he knew all tjat from the beginning of PT, I would be disappointed and frustrated.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

All it could be, but really, like really, this is beyond dumb at this level of game.

[The_Sibelis]

I've been thinking about why Etri... And I came to the conclusion his death was just one possible positive outcome. The point was to get Etri out of the way, or lead. Because, I think his sister Nfected. Mostly because she DID lie. I don't think she was supposed to, I think considering what we know of svartalfs that was an oddity. So now Etri has taken the sideline to watch for more assassination attempts and she's taken point.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

I think Svartalves, while honest and honorable, are not Faerie, and even among Faerie IIRC only Sidhe rulling species is banned from lying overall.

But I mean if there was any more complicated and realistic shtick beyond it than Thomas being idiot, and Nemesis making extremely contrieved plots to maybe somehow get ticket to Demonreach - then yes give me to it, because now I'm just angry for this plot, despite thrill ride and usual good Dresden prose.

[The_Sibelis]

It's not beyond them sure, but it's /unlike/ them.
Another thing I've noticed is a particular brand of female seems to be Nemesis' particular favorite host.. usually unstable magic users.

[Telynn]

The only way that what Thomas did makes any sense was, as someone else said, if Nemesis hit him really fast and gave him no time to think his way out.  No time to contact Harry.

I just can't imagine what Nemesis said to him to set that up.  Hopefully at some point that will be explained in more detail.

[Dina]

I think it lying was so out of character for svartalves it would have red flagged Harry and also Mab and Molly who, I guess, know the details of what happened.