Who runs the White Council?

[Yuillegan]

So Jim said in his most recent Q&A at Barbara Bookstores that do we really think that anyone running the White Council is really what they look like.

Now you can take that a couple of ways:

1. The Merlin isn't actually running the White Council. He is just a figure head or someone's puppet.
2. The Merlin isn't what we think he is. Human, not human, black council who knows.
3. The Senior Council report to Something Else. Maybe Vadderung, maybe some other Big Deal.

If 1 is true, I'd say that 3 could also be true. However if 1 is true and 3 is not, then which member of the White Council is actually the boss? Cristos (seems unlikely), LtW (possibly, but probably not), Eb (hell of a sucker punch, but there you have it), Rashid (very possible yet seems a bit busy), Martha Liberty (would be fascinating, I think, but considering she supported Harry in Summer Knight seems unlikely), Ancient Mai (the least known, so probably the most likely after the Merlin).

However, it also could be that Arthur Langtry isn't what he seems. Could he be something else?

And if the SC do report to Something, what is that thing? Vadderung would be the right choice as he taught the OG Merlin yet he seems a bit busy and it would seem to run counter to his whole "I'm gonna teach you, but then it's up to you".

[TheCuriousFan]

And there's option number four: that his antagonism vis-a-vis Harry is feigned for some reason.

[Arjan]

Or key positions within the white council and a majority of the senior council are secretly taken over by Nemesis and Harry has to fight against them. That is what the gatekeeper meant when he talked about Harry confronting the council in the future.

[BrainFireBob]

Jim likes subverting tropes and sayings. Bob is a literal talking head. Thomas doesn't trust anything.

Slang for a paragon hero? Being on the side of the angels.

The Council think they are- they are supposed to, or consider themselves, humanity's representatives in the supernatural community.

They're not. They're fighting against the guy who literally is.

[Pirate101]

What if the White Council, the Venatori Umbrorum and the Librarians are basically the same thing? The forces that insulate humanity from the supernatural. Just different aspects and different sorts of personnel, somewhat different agendas on the forefront, different identity-grounding stories, benefits, politics .... to ensure the loyalties of their own

[Bad Alias]

Jim watched Babylon 5. https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/6ltrjg/suggestion_one_of_jim_butchers_favorite_shows/. It's a series where the obvious villains are good guys and the obvious good guys turn out to be villains. This clip is from season 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5xhucIJK8k. I think it's more along the lines of what G'Kar was saying. People's motivations and character are not what they seem. The Merlin's a good guy, Ebenezer, the paragon of virtue, is an assassin, LtW is Black Council, Cristos is a political mastermind trying to destroy the Black Council, etc. Ebenezer is an example of someone not being what he seems. The rest is purely speculation for illustration of what could be.

There's also a Grey Council in B5. B5 is in my top 2 all time great TV series. A lot of that might be because it was so groundbreaking when it came out. It was the first long running TV series I've ever seen where nearly every episode was important. I think there's only one episode that doesn't play into the larger story arc.

[Yuillegan]

I agree that there is lots of Babylon 5 stuff that Jim uses. But considering his sheer amount of other influences, it's hard to guess which bits he has swapped in and out.

Personally, I doubt LtW is a villain. I wondered about it earlier but the latest books gave him ample opportunity to be the bad guy and he wasn't. No, I think River wouldn't trust him either if he were a villain. Jim LOVES the Bigfoot stuff. Basically, River is the Bigfoot version of Michael Carpenter.

Rashid, on the other hand, might just be somewhat more Grey. Eb isn't bad just complicated. Hence why he set up a Grey Council. The Merlin...is a very difficult character to pin down. I suspect he is attempting to try and do good but is actually just ruining things. He is almost certainly not Black Council or Cowl. He has his own Council, and while we haven't seen him do much fighting, Cowl's style seems much more aggressive. The Merlin, by his own nature, seems defensive (master of Wards and defensive magic, master of communication and air magic). If Harry had dueled him in Dead Beat, Harry would be dead or wound up so tight he might as well be. Ancient Mai and Martha Liberty are the two that are most interesting to watch, considering how quiet they both are. Cristos seems to just be a fool, an ambitious fool but a fool nonetheless. BG did not paint him as a particularly special character.

And there's option number four: that his antagonism vis-a-vis Harry is feigned for some reason.

Well, that could lean into any of the first three options I think. But I think his antagonism is real enough. It seems to be he hates Ebenezar enough and Harry is Eb's apprentice.

Or key positions within the white council and a majority of the senior council are secretly taken over by Nemesis and Harry has to fight against them. That is what the gatekeeper meant when he talked about Harry confronting the council in the future.

Possibly...the limits of Nemesis keep getting more and more confusing. It seems like a possession from the way it's presented in BG. Yet at the same time, it also seems to have potentially had more than one host at once (there is some crossover between hosts in Cold Days etc). Whether they are nemfected, or have been, or are merely puppets or even allies of it is mostly impossible to tell at this point. We shall see.

[Griffyn612]

Do we have a transcript yet of what he said? I'd like to see the exact wording.

[Yuillegan]

No, but here is the link: https://www.crowdcast.io/e/jim-butcher/register.

You can watch the replay easily enough. I can't remember where he says it exactly but you can increase playback speed if you want to get through it quickly enough.

[Bad Alias]

I agree that there is lots of Babylon 5 stuff that Jim uses.

I'm more saying that it's analogous to what G'Kar said than Jim took it from that.

Rashid, on the other hand, might just be somewhat more Grey. Eb isn't bad just complicated. Hence why he set up a Grey Council. The Merlin...is a very difficult character to pin down. I suspect he is attempting to try and do good but is actually just ruining things. He is almost certainly not Black Council or Cowl. He has his own Council, and while we haven't seen him do much fighting, Cowl's style seems much more aggressive. The Merlin, by his own nature, seems defensive (master of Wards and defensive magic, master of communication and air magic). If Harry had dueled him in Dead Beat, Harry would be dead or wound up so tight he might as well be. Ancient Mai and Martha Liberty are the two that are most interesting to watch, considering how quiet they both are. Cristos seems to just be a fool, an ambitious fool but a fool nonetheless. BG did not paint him as a particularly special character.

And Jim's saying not everyone is as they seem. I'd have a hard time accepting LtW as a villain, but what do we really know about him? River might just have a blind spot for him and only see the young man he trained so long ago. We've seen Eb do that with Harry.

Do we have a transcript yet of what he said? I'd like to see the exact wording.

It's not exact, but.
Q: How much time did the Merlin spend swearing when he learned Harry had returned?
A:[Stammering]I'm not going to answer that because you'll see later as we go on. Um. Does anyone really think that whoever's in charge of the White Council is really what he looks like? So we'll see more about that as we move along."

It's 34:55 of the video.

I do think that the Merlin might not be as anti-Harry as we think. I do think he doesn't like him and is endlessly frustrated with Harry for going left when he should have gone right.

[BrainFireBob]

Hope he's really Chauncy in disguise.

[Mira]

Jim watched Babylon 5. https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/6ltrjg/suggestion_one_of_jim_butchers_favorite_shows/. It's a series where the obvious villains are good guys and the obvious good guys turn out to be villains. This clip is from season 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5xhucIJK8k. I think it's more along the lines of what G'Kar was saying. People's motivations and character are not what they seem. The Merlin's a good guy, Ebenezer, the paragon of virtue, is an assassin, LtW is Black Council, Cristos is a political mastermind trying to destroy the Black Council, etc. Ebenezer is an example of someone not being what he seems. The rest is purely speculation for illustration of what could be.

There's also a Grey Council in B5. B5 is in my top 2 all time great TV series. A lot of that might be because it was so groundbreaking when it came out. It was the first long running TV series I've ever seen where nearly every episode was important. I think there's only one episode that doesn't play into the larger story arc.

  Yeah, and it could have been even greater, JMS was forced to rewrite the last four seasons because the star Michael O'Hare unknown to anyone suffered from severe mental illness.  He left the show after the first season, and it is a tribute to JMS's writing ability that he could pull off the change from Sinclair to Sheridan.  O'Hare did manage to take his meds and make a guest appearance in which he turned out to be Valen I believe in the third season.  There were lots of rumors about the departure of Mr O'Hare, from poor ratings to lack of star appeal, and there were a lot of upset fans who loved him, including me who couldn't understand why he left.  We know now that JMS promised to keep Mr O'Hare's secret when he left.  Mr O'Hare suffered from severe paranoid schizophrenia, and like a lot of schizophrenics struggled with the concept that he needed meds and needed to take them because of the side effects and the delusion that they were cured.  He did have a couple of jobs after he left the show, but his condition continued to get worse, it ruined his marriage and finally he became homeless until he died of a heart condition.  On his death JMS revealed what had happened to him.  I feel compelled to write this because I too loved the show and the character of Jeffery Sinclair and admired the star who played him.   

[Bad Alias]

JMS also crammed two seasons into Season 4 because he was under threat of cancellation. Basically, half of what happened in Season 4 was supposed to happen in Season 5. That's why Season 5 seems to have so much filler.

[Griffyn612]

It's not exact, but.
Q: How much time did the Merlin spend swearing when he learned Harry had returned?
A:[Stammering]I'm not going to answer that because you'll see later as we go on. Um. Does anyone really think that whoever's in charge of the White Council is really what he looks like? So we'll see more about that as we move along."

It's 34:55 of the video.

I do think that the Merlin might not be as anti-Harry as we think. I do think he doesn't like him and is endlessly frustrated with Harry for going left when he should have gone right.

That sounds more like Arthur just has secrets to his personality, rather than some bigger secret of someone else being in charge or him being a different being.