!!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE

[morriswalters]

The question is moot if you never have the child in the first place.

[Arjan]

Inari Raith asks if she doesn't count.

Those are very specific circumstances. You can not reliable recreate them.

[Yuillegan]

Yeesh we have fallen down a rabbit hole.

1. I think Mab was specifically saying she can't marry Lara because...they're both women. I know, I know - very controversial. But I do think she was actually saying that. Not that I think either of them are worried about a gay relationship tbh. But the whole thing about the Ladies MUST be vigins. The Queen perhaps has a limit around marriage, perhaps altogether, but perhaps because it must be a King. The fact that she used the word "compatibility" lead me to think this. It didn't sound like she couldn't get married altogether, just not to Lara. And I think that's to do with Lara being a women. Perhaps a Vampire too. I may well be wrong of course, but I think that's what she was getting at.

2. I can totally see Harry having a WCV for a son. Especially if Thomas dies. A sort of opportunity to do it better. Harry does seem to follow his mother's footsteps.

Exactly, or is it more of a Mission Impossible thing?  In other words they want Harry to continue what he is doing, they just don't want the fall out from it.  Kicking him out of the Council gives them plausible deniability.

Very interesting idea. And totally the kind of screwy thinking some of them have. Especially considering Jim said recently they really needed the power of Demonreach.

Well he has a lot of identities... we know Kringle and Beowulf at least.
But historically Odin was identified with Mercury, Thor with Jupiter (Zeus).

Indeed. I think I might be wrong about the Zeus thing. Jim talked a bit about Zeus in a recent interview and it seems like he views him as a very different being to Vadderung. I did know about the Mercury/Hermes connection and often wondered if Vadderung was also once Thoth (who is also equated with Mercury and Hermes). It's not unreasonable to expect more than one God to use a lightning bolt type weapon.

This seems to have very interesting implications, yeah. Per WOJ Drakul is something entirely inhuman trapped in human form. Since Starborn seems to imply being born, maybe his human form was an actual human being rather than an 'assumed' form (like Uriel's temporary human form in SG).
Maybe a starborn wizard way-back-when messed up a summoning and ended up being completely possessed?

Indeed. Hard to reconcile the thing. Also seems to fit the old idea that Drakul is a scion more. Yeah, perhaps Drakul is what Starborn can become if things go really south. The "Destroyer" thing that Morgan mentioned comes to mind.

Well, as for lost knowledge... it seems from "Backup" that those beings that are genuinely forgotten can't act in the mortal world anymore. So beings only mentioned in completely lost books probably aren't relevant.

I agree they'd be unlikely to know the exact powers and weaknesses of really obscure beings.

It's just a pet peeve of mine. I just think it's poor writing giving humans all these macguffins when we know how hard life is. We can barely keep the planet going most of the time. It's just absurd when people come of with the exact right piece of knowledge in a week. Who knows, maybe Jim will get the balance right. If they are about the Watchers level in Buffy that's about alright.

Think it's a time scale issue. It hasn't fully happened at the end of BG, but the process has been set in motion. But the lack of any electronic documentation is going to be a real issue in terms of the public believing this - at first. Especially with the whole 'hallucinogenic gas' bit.

It's still going to happen, but it won't be immediate. There will be lots of different stories flying around for quite a while - confused eyewitness accounts, the official story, the Paranet version pieced together from eyewitness accounts and some background supernatural knowledge, and lots of mundane conspiracy theories (aliens, secret government experiments, etc.)

And Mab even spoke to all of Chicago right at the start of BG with her magic voice. Who on Earth would forget that? I get that it can't all happen at once. But you barely need to look at history to see how the world reacts to violent events, especially those in the US, to see how crazy things would become. I hope Jim doesn't take too long with it.

My feeling is Jim is trying to write himself out of a corner. On the one hand, he wants Maggie to have this normal life and Dresden to go back to the good old days of being a private detective and Wizard outcast and they can just be comfy in the Castle. However, the world he has created has escalated well beyond all that. Harry doesn't have a normal life. He can't. If you look at people who live similarly chaotic and important/centre-of-everything lives they don't have time to be a normal person. Harry isn't a normal person. I think it would be far more interesting for, and more believable, if Harry sent Maggie off to boarding school or whatever. Frees Harry up to do his saving the world thing. Maggie then has time to grow into a resentful child that Harry has to deal with, and try and make it up to. I like that Dresden WANTS to be a good parent etc. But it's just not very realistic, and it means Jim has to contort the story in more and more ridiculous ways just to make it work. If you stripped it down to Harry working as an FBI or CIA etc agent after 9/11 and working directly on the case, do you really think he would be home in time for dinner? No, of course not.

The guiding angel in the sword decides how much damage it does based on the targets spiritual state. That can change depending on the situation.

The burn was just a warning. In the end Harry had to make his choice himself. In lovecraftian stories beings can return “when the stars are right”. The outsiders are preparing for that moment as is Mab. Nemesis doesn’t mind sacrificing pawns as long as she can get new ones if it weakens winter at that exact moment.

Sure, the good or evil part can change. That's the benefit of Free Will. But Harry is going darkside, and has been a long time. Look at how all his friends are reacting to him. Look at how the semi-bad guys and really bad guys are. We are all most blind to ourselves and Harry has blindspots a mile wide.
I agree that's what the Outsiders are up to. Nemesis seems to consider itself a He, as in He Who Walks Beside. Wouldn't get hung up though on the gender of a being from beyond reality. 

If there's a time based opening I'm pretty sure it'll be one that's a lot shorter than a decade and a half otherwise there's tens of millions of them.

I know, it's a pretty big hole. But clearly there is more too it otherwise they all share the same birthday. And don't forget, Justin thought Elaine was one too it seems. So clearly it's not as crystal clear as we are being lead to believe. Trust me, Jim's building up a big sucker punch. In one of his most recent Q&As he said the whole starborn thing has been going on for longer than even most supernatural folks can remember. He seemed to imply (in my eyes) that it may well predate mankind and have started since Lucifer Fell. I mean, the 666 years isn't just a random number.

My point was that Eb specialises in the kind of magic that Blood Rites showed gets around the defence without a problem, just don't think too hard about the backstory one liner lest you start poking holes in it.

What magic does Eb specialise in that allows him to kill targets immune to magic? I mean, even his biggest hits on Ethniu did nada. And unless you think he somehow was allied with Lord Raith and meant his daughter to die, I don't see at all why Eb wouldn't try and kill Raith for the murder of his child. Look how upset he got when he saw Harry's daughter was out in the open.

That's what I meant, Harry in general is safe from the sword most days. Harry in that specific moment in BG was pretty close to going full darkside and so got burnt.

I agree that Harry's darkside-o-meter went up at that point which likely contributed to the burn. The fun of Free Will I imagine. But, Harry is going darker. There is no doubt about that.

I don't think the Sword *burned* Harry at all.

Harry wasn't just set on revenge, in his hate and despair he'd turned over control entirely to the Winter Mantle. The Sword just burned out the Mantle for a moment, leaving Harry to feel all the pain he'd accumulated in the battle -- including a left arm that was charred to the elbow from overuse of the shield bracelet.

Read the section again. It clearly burns him. Even his mantle does nothing for the pain. It didn't burn out the mantle, it's just the mantle does nothing for certain types of pain. Loss. Guilt. Loneliness. I think the physical burn is just an indicator of how bad his spirit was getting. It wasn't from the shield bracelet, which was just his wrist. He even talks about how the burn goes down his forearm.

[Bad Alias]

Nemesis, like everybody else, expects a massive war of humans vs everybody else to begin soonish.

I think Harry's going to turn this on it's head.

If there's a time based opening I'm pretty sure it'll be one that's a lot shorter than a decade and a half otherwise there's tens of millions of them.

It could be something where everything is in alignment over the course of a decade but only for a short time each year or something. I doubt it, but maybe.

[TheCuriousFan]

What magic does Eb specialise in that allows him to kill targets immune to magic? I mean, even his biggest hits on Ethniu did nada. And unless you think he somehow was allied with Lord Raith and meant his daughter to die, I don't see at all why Eb wouldn't try and kill Raith for the murder of his child. Look how upset he got when he saw Harry's daughter was out in the open.

Flinging rocks at people, if flinging keys works just fine to get around the defence then rocks work even better. I was saying don't think about it too hard because in the end it's one line of backstory that hasn't aged well.

[Arjan]

Flinging rocks at people, if flinging keys works just fine to get around the defence then rocks work even better. I was saying don't think about it too hard because in the end it's one line of backstory that hasn't aged well.

Ebenezer probably tried some complex magical trick and did not think it through. He also did not know about his daughters curse so he assumed papa raith could recover from any normal damage and just fill his tank again.

With the knowledge of the curse he could just go for the Kincaid approach as many times as needed but that simply did not occur to him and he did not have that knowledge. And he was also molded by white council training as papa Raith remarked.

He is also an older generation. We never see Ebenezer use a gun.

[JTass]

Just to note, as soon as I saw the Huntsmen explained, I thought "Chronicles of Prydain!"

I had the same thought.

[Yuillegan]

Flinging rocks at people, if flinging keys works just fine to get around the defence then rocks work even better. I was saying don't think about it too hard because in the end it's one line of backstory that hasn't aged well.

I understand what's gone wrong here. You and I are talking about different things. Lord Raith was never immune to physical damage, and therefore even if an object was manipulated with magic, it is still an object of the physical world and therefore will affect him just like any other physical assault.

Eb may have not realised this. Lord Raith's defences are against purely magical, spiritual assaults. So attacking him in such a way was never going to work. Eb even discusses the issues with using intentional forces versus natural operation of the univers, in Peace Talks (when discussing why regular physical fire is better against Outsiders than magically created/controlled fire). If Eb had considered that an Outsider was protecting Raith he might have realised this and dropped a satellite on him.

But to be very clear, using already established physical objects IS NOT a way around his magical defences. Harry never hit Raith with magic. He his him with a physical object. He exploited Raith's physical weakness.

Arjan is essentially correct in that it probably never occurred to Ebenezar and he simply assumed it was a matter of the right magical assault, rather than considering Raith's physical weakness' (of which publicly were still assumed to be few).

Eb doesn't specialise in magic that get's around targets immune to magic. As far as I can see, no one does. No one succeeded in getting around Raith's or Ethniu's ability to resist/ignore magical assault. Every attack on them that was successful was physical in nature. Natural operation vs Intention. Exploitation of the weaknesses of a being isn't the same as beating the beating their magical defence. Harry probably couldn't get through Mab's magical defences, in pure magical assaults. But he could always put a bullet in her brain. And Cold Iron can't be resisted by the Fae. Physical vs Spiritual.

[Dina]

Ok, fair warning. I have not read the thread yet. I want to share my feelings and after that I will be reading a lot of threads. I've seen some titles and a few first posts in every thread and I know that some of my issues with the book are addressed in those threads, so I won't be too long here, I will just try to summarize my feelings and a few points I consider important.

First. I liked the book. Definitely better than PT, and, considering the two books as one, still one falling around the middle in my preference list. Now, speaking about BG specifically:

Things I loved: many quotes, Harry's will and wish to help humans and really caring for everyone. And as always, Mouse, Michael, Butters and Sanya. Bob, I really want Bob to be back with Harry. Also, Toot, Lacuna and all the little ones. Harry's conversations with Gard.

Things I liked. All the action was interesting and fun to read. And I think it was specially good balance, with all people who should be doing important in it, doing it. Mab. Lara. The fact that Ebenezar survived. Same about the Alphas and the Knights. Harry won a reputation all by her own.
Goodman Grey, I always like to see him. And I am pleased Harry was not a complete moron and realized what was happening with Justine before arriving to Demonreach.

Things which I hate: That there is no resolution of the Thomas problem, and by that I mean, there are not epilogue about his official status. Is he still a fugitive? Will it matter the fact that he was under cohesion? What was the official reaction to the fact that he was not in his cell? And of course, why is he still on the pokeball? I understood that he needed to feed. Can he feed of a fae? Or a Black court slave? Some wounded person who was going to die anyway?

What I don't like: The book is juggling too many things and it is all over the place. Let me see
 .Of course, the main thing with the Titan
 .The Thomas issue
 . Harry status with the WCouncil and Harry personal drama with Carlos and Eb.
 - Drakul
 - the Stars and Stones meaning and all that what will happen in a year with LTW talking with someone
 . The reality risking to break...a plot that means nothing, as it is never mentioned again.
 - Of course, the pairing, but that is just in the last episode

It is just too much. Also, things I did not like
 That Murphy killed the Jotun so easily. I am pretty sure that Marcone and his people could have shared some bazookas with every "squadron" to kill all them if just a shot was enough. I've felt it was done so she needed to be a hero and then die a stupid death, but I think it could have been done with a lesser monster, so it is more believable. I do think her death was good, and she deserves a good rest but I definitely don't like that he was taken by Odin. She was a Christian, her place was in Heaven. And she should have the chance to meet her dad. Also, Many long lived people (including Mab) would remember her, so she won't be back in like ever.

That there is not one giving Harry something to heal, like a potion- I don't want to discuss how probable is that, it is just is difficult to believe that Harry human body, even with the mantle, could survive that much punishment.

That if he was so important for everyone (specially Lara), he was alone so many times.

That Justine has been infected so much. What about True Love? I don't get it. If she has been infected after Thomas and her were able to touch again, I would understand it.

And now, the things I want to comment:
1) Where is Mister at the end, and in Christmas Story. I am worried!
2) About Christmas Story, it was changed. JB basically lie to us in order to preserve the surprise, I guess. The Wizard of Chicago says now, instead of "a wizard of the WC". Also, he mislead us a little about how many goodbyes. There are only 4 or 5 people and only one with real significance for us, but I understand that they are important for Harry...and I am so happy people survived that I have no problems with some misleading. I just want to comment it, not criticize it.
3) what happened with the Spear?? It has not been mentioned in the ending, and Harry took off his coat in the boat so, perhaps Justine took it? For a moment I thought he had been mind altered to forget about the Spear, but I guess Alfred would have asked for it
4) What happened with the placard? And Mac and his place. It was not revisited in the aftermath
5) Why Ivy does not react to Harry's presence? Why he did not even wave or smile to her? Why he did not wonder about Kinkaid? (We know, but I don't think Harry does)
6) Where is Kinkaid, I want him back, specially with Drakul around
7) Did I misread or Listen is a starborn too? Why nobody seem to care about that.
The ending in general is too rushed but I think we needed a line or two about Harry telling the Knights about Marcone the Denarian (or at least I hope he told them)
9) What with Mab ordering him to kill Molly? I think that breaks her word but I've seen a thread about this so I will post more there
10) About what LTW told him, if he was being bred for something, and he is supposed to do something, why the WC allowed him to be in so much danger so many times? Shouldn't them protect him? (the way Winter did, at least)
11) Where is Chandler? I don't think he is dead
12) The marriage is not so bad idea. He is still protected by Murphy's love, so she won't feed on him. The White Council already fired him so it does not matter if they see him literally laying with monsters. And being with the White Court will act as a deterrent to his enemies and protect Maggie. Between the two WC and his own reputation, I don't see many foes daring to go for Maggie.

Sorry it was so long, now to read!

[Dina]

Sorry about the double post, but I wanted to comment a few things of the OP

a)   Listen is one (and he disappears but isn't dead after all is said and done), it explains his importance to the Empress although she does seem more nonchalant than the others about Starborn. Drakul (more on him later) is also one. And we learn from Mavra that he seems to want to sacrifice Starborn to or for the "Stars and the Stones". Harry also finally pays attention and actually asks more questions about the big stuff.

This reminded me of something, the strange thing about how to kill King Cob. "when the deepest ocean meets the sun". I have not idea what this means but I was thinking, perhaps thanks to the so far criminally underused Maggie Le Fay stone, Harry could find a way and open a portal between the deepest ocean and a sunny place. Or, of course, they can put him in the middle of a crash between two boats called "the deepest ocean" and "the sun".

b) As it seems likely there are multiple Starborn running around there are a number of possible candidates:
Elaine (almost certain now considering Justin's involvement...more so if she were Kumori), Marcone (seems like another reveal), Nicodemus (would explain a lot of his game), Rashid (for obvious reasons). Perhaps others.

Marcone is too old

5. The Eye. Was mostly very impressive although hardly a nuke. More like the energy of a nuke focussed. Arguably far more dangerous but it would have been nice to see an OMG moment. Everyone likes a big boom. Also, Harry lying about who ended up with it and using it to manipulate Marcone was stupid on Harry's part. He won the round but he will pay for it. If he had been prepared to try and buy the castle off Marcone he might have dodged the eventual repercussions. But it can kill Immortals apparently. Mab was concerned it could finish her. So now we have two ways Immortals can kill: conjunctions and super-magical power. Which makes a certain amount of sense.

I agree about that being stupid. After Marcone let him go with the Eye things had been more or less civil between them. I think Harry could have negotiated in private or something liek that. There had to be another way that was not so bad for Marcone ego and won't make him so angry. I prefer when they don't truly hate each other.
On a side note, in the conversation when they were changing clothes, Harry told him that he would stop him one day and Marcone smiled. I am thinking that in a deep level, Marcone feels that if he became fully Denarian, fully monster, is good to have someone with Harry to stop him. Just as Harry feels good that Butters is near him to stab him if he became full monster.

6. Reality breaking. Lifted pretty much from Warhammer I think. More magic equals less reality. Too much equals catastrophic reality failure. Also, Ferrovax went from closing the Earth to holding reality together from the Nevernever. It seems like Jim forgot what he was doing and put him in a new position. It still gels and was cool but the Archive ended up with the Svartalves. I suspect in an older copy Ferrovax was with them but later Jim had to change things and ended up with Ivy. But Bob mentioned that if there was too much strain Reality might collapse.

I thought this was taken from the "World of Darkness". Too much magic produces a lot of paradox, reality can't handle it. Also, I did not like all the part about breaking reality, it seem like a "OH NO, WE ARE DOOMED!!!" moment that then...it's forgotten. And yes, only explains why Ferrovax is not in the fight (I suspect he is too powerful)

11. Drakul.
11Librarians.
13 Seems like the Placard was a lot of build-up for very little bang

I wonder if the classic "you kill the original vampire, all die" is true in the Butcherverse. If Harry kills Drakul he will destroy a second vampire race.
I did not like the Librarians introduction at all. Specially because we don't need more factions.
Agree about the placard, specially because it is not mentioned in the aftermath

Lastly, about Mab wanting to kill Molly and Justine I will post in specific threads that other people created.

[Mira]

I would add to that list two more things. 

1]  Is Bob back with Harry now?  I know Butters handed him off during the battle, but if he scanned the castle as well that would imply that he is. 
2]  Why is it that Murphy had a hold of a rocket launcher and Marcone's men didn't? 

I agree about that being stupid. After Marcone let him go with the Eye things had been more or less civil between them. I think Harry could have negotiated in private or something liek that. There had to be another way that was not so bad for Marcone ego and won't make him so angry. I prefer when they don't truly hate each other.

Actually it was smart, it was all about sending a public warning to Marcone.  Marcone always was dangerous, but now with a coin and wizard powers you can multiply that many,many times.  Dominance is the only thing gentleman Marcone understands.  By not revealing that he has the Eye, when everyone else is pretty sure he does, keeps them guessing and also gives Harry some ability to protect Chicago.  It was really the only peaceful way he could contain Marcone/Namshiel.

[Telynn]

4) What happened with the placard? And Mac and his place. It was not revisited in the aftermath

My guess about that is it is still at Mac's.  I think when he accepted it and put his blood on it, his place just got upgraded from Neutral Grounds to some sort of super protected place.  I would like more explanation on what that is or how it works but what I gathered is if you are in that place you are protected until or unless Mac himself dies.  That's why Mac really didn't want it.  I don't imagine this was a temporary thing, and pushed him from neutral observer to someone important.

[Dina]

Mira, about 1, perhaps. About 2, exactly!
And you may be right about Marcone, I am not very good in politics 

[Arjan]

I would add to that list two more things. 

1]  Is Bob back with Harry now?  I know Butters handed him off during the battle, but if he scanned the castle as well that would imply that he is.

Impossible to say but I think Bob is borrowed.

 
2]  Why is it that Murphy had a hold of a rocket launcher and Marcone's men didn't? 

The same way she gets all those other illigal weapons. She probably has the number of Kincaids arms dealer. We know Harry has.

Actually it was smart, it was all about sending a public warning to Marcone.  Marcone always was dangerous, but now with a coin and wizard powers you can multiply that many,many times.  Dominance is the only thing gentleman Marcone understands.  By not revealing that he has the Eye, when everyone else is pretty sure he does, keeps them guessing and also gives Harry some ability to protect Chicago.  It was really the only peaceful way he could contain Marcone/Namshiel.

[The_Sibelis]

I put alot of stock in the repeating history theory in the DF, so much so as to predict events from it... It's actually nice to see it working in reverse too. Odin had a map just as detailed as Harry's LC (though I didn't take if as a working) and Mab totally pulled a Molly when she took on the fomor... A love when the parallels align so.