Author Topic: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?  (Read 1391 times)

Offline gfrenfgh12

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Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« on: September 27, 2020, 01:15:19 AM »
This is not a pleasant, or easy post to write--and yet it's one that I think needs to be written.

I discovered the Dresden Files over a decade ago, and fell in love with them. Naturally, when quarantine hit, I ordered a bunch of the old books to reread.

I was reading the last of them--Turn Coat--when I came across this excerpt between Harry and Captain Luccio:

"Yeah. It was really hard to tell who the good guys and bad guys were in World War Two."

She rolled her eyes. "You've read the histories written by the victors of that war, Harry. As someone who lived through it, I can tell you that at the time of the war, there was a great deal less certainty. There were stories of atrocities in Germany, but for every one that was true, there were another five or six that weren't. How could one have told the difference between the true stories, the propaganda, and simple fabrications and myths created by the pople of the nations Germany had attacked?"

When I read this, I stopped cold. I reread it three more times. I showed to a bunch of people. We all tried to figure out some other explanation to what this meant, and failed.

As far as I can see, Jim Butcher is trying to downplay, or perhaps outright deny, the Holocaust.

To be clear: the Holocaust is a proven fact. The murder of six million Jews is a proven fact. The horrific experiments done on babies and children is a fact. It has been proven again, and again, and again.

How does someone in today's day and age find it within themselves to deny such a thing?

I don't know what else to say. I really don't. Maybe someone else does. For me, this will the last of Jim's works I ever read.


Offline paranetonline

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2020, 03:32:47 AM »
Attention
This post has been approved for the sake of respectful discussion.  Any replies should be carefully considered.  Normally, real-world topics are Touchy Topics and therefore forbidden, but we will try this one to allow the community the opportunity to share their perspective on this exchange.

Under no circumstances should anyone resort to attacking Butcher, the OP, or any responder, nor should they attack their opinions or personal interpretations.  This should be an exchange of thoughts, with the intention of offering a potentially different take on the material that may or may not help the OP and others address something they found disturbing amidst something they enjoy.
Keep the discussion on topic, which is the verbage and perspective outlined in the book, and the potential context.

Thank you in advance for your considerate participation.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2020, 08:27:53 AM »
Jim is usually better at avoiding controversial topics.

But proven fact is sometimes not enough. Ask Turks about the Armenian genocide.

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Offline Fcrate

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2020, 08:47:12 PM »
I don't see anything in there that specifically says that the holocaust didn't happen. But it's a fact that each side in a war thinks they're in the right and accuses others about many things that may or may not be true. How else to convince your people to go die?
My advice is to not jump to conclusions.
هل أخذت الغاب مثلي منزلاً دون القصور
فتتبعت السواقي وتسلقت الصخور
هل تحممت بعطره وتنشفت بنور
وشربت الفجر خمراً من كؤوس من أثير

Offline Regenbogen

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2020, 07:10:53 PM »
I'm with Fcrate here.
I read it as it said. In retrospect one can always say "Why didn't they see that?"
But just think of recent times.
Do we know everything? Do we really know, who is doing what and where and why? And anywhere in the world? Is what we think we know true? How do we know what is truth and what we shouldn't believe? Sometimes there are things happening, you hear them, and you wish they were not true. This can't be. You don't want to believe, so you may choose to deny them.
We think in times of the www we should be able to see everything, to know everything, but we really don't.

Maybe many years from now, our great grandchildren will shake their heads and say: "How could they have been so blind? It was in front of their eyes the whole time!"
I'm just talking of information in general, no specific topic. You can put in anything you like.

And back to Luccio's words:
Remember, this is a character in a fictional book talking, not the author himself.

Offline Otlan

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2020, 01:14:45 AM »
I would like to point out, that History is written by the victorious, but history is often much more complicated and darker then that.

Take the example of Christoper Columbious for example. Hailed as a hero for being the first man to discover America, with the help of his backer queen Ezabela of Spain after she pawned off all her jewelry to fund the expodition. Not one word of any of that is true.

-First and foremost. Columbious wasn't trying to discover Amarica or prove that the earth was round. In fact, Columbious believed the earth was flat, and continued to believe it until the day he died. Amarica had already been discoverd by other exploers, most notably the Vikings and Ferdanad Majelien. Columbia's was actually trying to find a faster Trade Rout to Asia. Instead, he wound up in South Amarica.

-Secound. Queen Ezabela never had to pawn one piece of jewelery to fund his expodition. See, Queen Ezabela was a Catholic, and had a habit of burning at the stake "Heatens" while a couior sang to keep the screams from offending her ears, with all the wealth from said poor souls being seized by the crown. It was this wealth she used to fund the expodition.

-Third. When Columbis finally did land, he and his crew were greeted peacefully by the natives, who Columbis and his men began to kill and enslave, until very few of them remained. He then took, along with the slaves, all the Spices, Fabrics and Gold his ship would hold, and returned to the queen and his homeland in Victory.

That's the real history, but for a long time, people would shut they're eyes and try to deny it, because they didn't want to beleive they'd been idolizeing a fucking Monster. Humans are kind of idiotic stupid funny that way. They don't want the truth. Just the Painted Version.

Having said that, yes, the Holocost was an unimaginable tragedy, one of the darkest moments in human history and should not be downplayed or denied. But this conversation between Harry and Lucile makes no mention of it specifically. Keep in mind, Hitler was accused of a lot of things. Some even think he managed to escape. The two of them could be talking about anything related to the war, not just the Holocost. There were also rumors that Hitler dabled in the Arcane. Harry and Lucile are Wizards.

Maby we shouldn't jump to conclusions until we have the Facts.

Bonus Fact: Two of Columbiouses ship, the Nina and the Pinta, are Sailor Slang for Prostituets. Being a God Fearing man, Columbious made them name the third ship the Santa Maria.
Rest Well Mdodd, and Please Watch over Us...

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Offline B33bl3br0x

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2020, 01:05:20 AM »
Luccio is not denying any of the atrocities committed by Germany during WWII.

Harry is admonishing the White Council for its policy of noninvolvement in mortal affairs, using as an example, interceding during the war against the Axis powers because they were clearly super duper evil because of what they did.

Her response is basically a "hindsight is 20/20" thing. Looking back, throwing in with the Allies would clearly put you on the side of good, but it wasn't so clear at the time. She's saying that while WWII was happening there were stories of atrocities being carried out everywhere (by both the Axis and Allies) and most of the stories that were being circulated [bold]during the war[/bold] ended up being untrue; that is, at the time there was no way to tell that the reports of the holocaust were true. Remember that the character was alive at the time.

It is a bit of a cop out on Luccio's part because the WC was in a position to examine the stories of atrocities. Even though there were a lot of them, determining the truth of them all would have been possible for the council, though it certainly would have occupied a lot of time.

Offline Dina

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2020, 06:30:55 AM »
I agree about what you and Otlan said, B33. I just will add my 2 cents.
I have a friend who is born and raised in Argentina but lives in Israel since many years ago. She told me that she and her (Jew) family is witness that at first, during the world, not even jewish living in what today is the country of Israel believe what the rumors said. It simply sounded like terror stories that were too awful to be true. Sadly, they were true, of course. But at the moment, not many people believed it. So what Luccio is saying is that today all is clear but it was not so clear at the moment. And I understand it because the generation of my parents had a lot of people that did not believe in the tragedy of our dictatorship in Argentina killing people, throwing them to the river from planes (sometimes alive), stealing the babies of the women that they had in concentration centers. There were rumors, some people believe it, some people not. And some of them believe that the dictatorship was saving them from something worse (anarchy, communism, violence). I won't say more because RL politics is very TT, but my point is...while the story is happening, not everyone can see it well or realize what is truly happening.
Missing you, Md 

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Offline sayyadina

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2020, 11:35:40 PM »
I'd have to say Luccio's assessment is acurate based on what I know. This never bothered me at all. The world was different then and no one truly knew the reality of the horror until the Nazis were defeated and the Allies liberated the concentration camps. My family is Jewish and my grandfather served in the war. He never spoke of what he saw, though. What I know is from what I learned in school and my own research given my personal interest in the subject. There was this one documentary I saw once that was quite good, but I can't for the life of me remember its title.

Luccio is also getting at something deeper, I think. Evil people don't see themselves as evil. Hitler didn't think he was evil and there were people who agreed with him. Personally I thought her take on the issue aligned with the facts as far as I know them and also brought out a more nuanced take on human nature that I appreciated. YMMV but it didn't bother me at all.

Offline PilgrimDan

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2020, 10:12:16 PM »
In his series ďSupernova in the EastĒ Dan Carlin goes into detail about the Japanese actions in China, especially Nanking. He points out, as bad as things got there, the press still made things up, like two Japanese soldiers engaging in a beheading contest. He also points out that what previous Empires, like the Assyrians, would have celebrated, we seek to minimise, or deny altogether.

Also, a little perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeU9QVh4MI8
So we donít forget the *other* victims of the Nazi regime.


Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2020, 12:07:33 AM »
First I wanted pointed few things about Columbus of all things:

Quote
Columbious wasn't trying to discover Amarica or prove that the earth was round. In fact, Columbious believed the earth was flat, and continued to believe it until the day he died.

I'm quite sure this is not true. Whole Columbus expedition was based on assumption Earth is round - but smaller and there is no Americas.
Columbus was in fact believing land he discovered was Easternmost part of India, and he died believing that. (I mean if he believed world is flat why would he he sail to India - straight West).

Quote
Amarica had already been discoverd by other exploers, most notably the Vikings and Ferdanad Majelien. Columbia's was actually trying to find a faster Trade Rout to Asia. Instead, he wound up in South Amarica.

We can say America was discovered by multiple tribes before, but when we say discovered in Columbus context we speak about perspective of let's say Eurasian civilisation. Viking settlements were earlier - but they were not known to Europe as whole.
Ferdinand Magellan was 12 when Columbus reached Carribean Islands. His discoveries - are decades later than Columbus.

Quote
-Third. When Columbis finally did land, he and his crew were greeted peacefully by the natives, who Columbis and his men began to kill and enslave, until very few of them remained. He then took, along with the slaves, all the Spices, Fabrics and Gold his ship would hold, and returned to the queen and his homeland in Victory.

That is vast oversimplification of longer process than truly in fact lead to downfall of Taino culture of Carribean Islands. (Not to absolve Spanish of their crimes, but it's simply not like Columbus came with his three ships and killed 2 million natives on multiple islands and then returned victoriously). Also reactions of various Taino tribes towards Spanish differed - there were violent reactions.

Quote
Bonus Fact: Two of Columbiouses ship, the Nina and the Pinta, are Sailor Slang for Prostituets. Being a God Fearing man, Columbious made them name the third ship the Santa Maria.

This is not really certain.
Primo, by custom all Spanish ship or almost all had Saint's name and unofficial surnames.
We know Nina (girl) was names Sainta Clara. And that her nickname was rather pun on her owner Juan NiŮo surname.
Santa Maria was nicknamed "La Gallega".
Secundo, neither of those ships were Columbus property. They all had owners - mentioned Juan Nino, Cristobal Quintero (Pinta), Juan de la Cosa
(Santa Maria). So it seems not improbable they all have their names estabilished before Columbus organised his expedition.

Now in terms of Luccio's words, I see no reason to treat it as Holocaust denying - I mean considering overall stories of DF I could make guess about sligthly right-wingish libertarian believes of Butcher - maybe, but how such interpretation would even hold in overall scheme. Especially consdiering Butters character?

But I also do not think it's simply hindsight thing.
Let's remember that one of allies was Joseph Stalin. Let's remember Soviets were trying to push some of their crimes on Nazis - like for instance Katyn massacre. And you have ignoring truth about many real attrocities on the other hand. Quite a mess.
Dresden know Nazis from comic books, and films when they are just sort of bland, death-cult spooks. Luccio knew people, and she had centuries of messy muggle politics remembered. And she also knew beings that would make Hitler, Stalin, Churchill and Eisenhower to shake hands, open fire from multiple machine guns and then be shredded into many bloody pieces (which arguably would make WW2 politics maybe a bit simpler). Beings like Dracul, Shagnasty, Outsiders, Denarians... She won't go all Manichean on mortals. Not even mortals with lot of blood on their hands. I mean remember what Jim wrote about soulgazing a Hitler.

(Or maybe she's just crypto-Mussolinian in heart :P)

Quote
It is a bit of a cop out on Luccio's part because the WC was in a position to examine the stories of atrocities. Even though there were a lot of them, determining the truth of them all would have been possible for the council, though it certainly would have occupied a lot of time.

And then which attrocities would they stop? Hitler's? Stalin's? Japanese? Lot of places to be for organisation as small. Especially when you cannot just kill the bad guys. Especially if there are warlocks and sorcerers fighting on different sides that needs to be taken out - and necromantic death cult using World Wars for his own purposes.



Offline BountyHunter

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2021, 10:27:28 AM »
I donít see that as Jim denying the Holocaust. I think itís a bit of an over reaction to assume thatís what he means.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2021, 12:43:56 PM »
I do not think we are supposed to automatically agree with Lucio here anyway. This is about we all can see that our morality is to a huge degree shaped by culture but that we also deep within us feel that some things should not be acceptable anywhere and yet these things might be the norm somewhere else.

Leaving the real world for what it is in the dresdenverse there is black and white and absolute evil has a face but at the same time all real world problems are still there. Harry is told several times to trust his good soul so he might be more right on a theoretical level but Lucio has always been practical.
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