Author Topic: The Placard  (Read 11810 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2020, 04:44:10 PM »
Getting wound up about these things is what we do  ;D

Indeed...  ;)

Offline Arjan

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2020, 05:35:16 PM »
Harry has the following sources of information

Bob
Bonea
Demonreach
Uriel
Mab

He has certainly spoken with Alfred about them, he has had the opportunity to talk to Uriel about them, as he spoke to Uriel about setting up his family ghost arrangement for Maggie. Bob is likely to know in general what it is even if it is on a different wavelength, Bonea would know about it but it might be difficult to get her to speak about it in relatable terms, Mab would know as she tasked him to get it.

Harry therefore knew. What is amazing is Harry actually asked it.

We might get wound up, but twice a day we go cuckoo
Both Mab and Uriel would prefer Harry to learn about the artifacts by studying them. At most they might give some cryptic clues to make him study more.

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Offline Mira

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2020, 05:47:57 PM »
Both Mab and Uriel would prefer Harry to learn about the artifacts by studying them. At most they might give some cryptic clues to make him study more.

  Yeah, there is a lot of, " I know, but I ain't going to tell you.."  The general consensuses
is, Harry has to get off his lazy butt and apply himself more, it is also a way for Jim to drag out
the series a bit more. ::)

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2020, 07:26:35 PM »
I'm aware of those possibilities.

But that doesn't explain how Harry knows mechanics that afaik are Jim's creations i.e. how the Placard can be used. There is no tradition I am aware of that says the Placard can be used to create a super-threshold. So naturally, this is Jim's invention. Harry is aware of this but no other character apart from Mac seemed to be. But how would Harry have come by such information?

I have not once said that Christ didn't die for anyone's sins in either our universe or any other. That's not what this discussion is about. I questioned how that scene showed Sin as a quantifiable force and how the scene showed that Christ died for the sins of humanity in the Dresden Files. Because the scene in question doesn't show either of those things.

And for merely asking I have had my beliefs speculated on and been attacked personally. Which is inappropriate.



This discussion has gone off the rails. Clearly it's too much to ask to get everyone to answer the central question in the OP i.e. How does DRESDEN know how the Placard works and how to employ it when there is no in-text exposition or explanation and no real world common knowledge to support these apparent epiphanies? How does Harry even know about the concept of 'embodied intercession'? These are serious writing plot holes

He learned offscreen.

Personally, given Demonreach, I wasn't surprised. Demonreach is a prison. Not an armory, not a fortress, but a prison- specifically, a suspended animation-style prison.

For Alfred to hold the beings Alfred holds, Alfred needs to be able to counter their abilities. For Alfred to know their abilities, Alfred has to have some kind of scanning ability to assess new arrivals. Given Alfred has scanning abilities and exists to store things, I just assumed that the "armory" was one of the crystal cells, where the name placard reads "Cool stuff." So Alfred would have scanned them, like anything else, on the way in.

That was my assumption reading, Harry's got other paths to the knowledge.

Offline Mira

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2020, 11:14:51 PM »
He learned offscreen.

Personally, given Demonreach, I wasn't surprised. Demonreach is a prison. Not an armory, not a fortress, but a prison- specifically, a suspended animation-style prison.

For Alfred to hold the beings Alfred holds, Alfred needs to be able to counter their abilities. For Alfred to know their abilities, Alfred has to have some kind of scanning ability to assess new arrivals. Given Alfred has scanning abilities and exists to store things, I just assumed that the "armory" was one of the crystal cells, where the name placard reads "Cool stuff." So Alfred would have scanned them, like anything else, on the way in.

That was my assumption reading, Harry's got other paths to the knowledge.

I agree that he did learn off screen, however Harry says, "pretty sure," as far as the spear/knife goes.  That implies a tiny bit of doubt, but I think that is a little bit of selfish wishful thinking, because he is afraid of what using it will do to him.

Offline forumghost

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2020, 01:53:04 AM »
Harry is a high level wizard guys, it's not that surprising that he can cast Identify.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2020, 10:23:47 PM »
It's [not showing us how Harry knows what the placard does] poor writing not to unless there is a very good reason Jim doesn't want us to know yet how Harry knows this information. And you certainly can't get the knowledge Harry has from the Web (even if Dresden could use the internet and worked out how to navigate it...).
I think a simple line about all the research he's been doing on the objects would have been enough. Not a line that he's been doing research. We've seen lines about his search for Elaine, Susan, and Maggie. Jim doesn't always show us the dead ends Harry goes down. Sometimes he just shows or tells us where he finally gets the answer. Like Conspiracy Theorist said, Harry has a lot of resources at his fingertips.

Demonreach is a prison. Not an armory.
But prisons do have armories, so Demonreach could have one and it would make sense for an eternal prison have a way for the spirit to know what the armory is.

Harry is a high level wizard guys, it's not that surprising that he can cast Identify.
Lol.

Offline SpoonR

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2020, 01:45:32 AM »
Harry has the following sources of information

Bob
Bonea
Demonreach
Uriel
Mab

Alfred has some difficulty communicating on Harry's level, but he should be usable at least for knowledge like 'point in that direction, add drop of blood, say the magic word to make it do its thing'. What exactly it does might be hard to explain, but for how to trigger it he should be able to reach Harry's level.

Also, there are books. IIRC Mab had a library. And Harry can request books from Mac's Backs'. And there's whatever books are in White Council HQ.

Can't explain why Jim didn't say anything about how Harry learned, but maybe he didn't want to make up more book names.


Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2020, 03:02:36 PM »
Minor spoiler for BG Harry had his library card withdrawn by the White Council apparently some time ago, so no to that source.

My theory is that they really revoked his card because they found he had used a piece of bacon as a bookmark, and that given in BG was merely a pretext.

Offline Mira

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2020, 04:05:20 PM »
Minor spoiler for BG Harry had his library card withdrawn by the White Council apparently some time ago, so no to that source.

My theory is that they really revoked his card because they found he had used a piece of bacon as a bookmark, and that given in BG was merely a pretext.

So Harry just happened to be carrying a piece of bacon around in his pocket?? :-\

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2020, 11:10:58 PM »
So, it is now weird to carry bacon in your pockets?...okay. The phrase "embodied intercession" sounds like a Demonreach description.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2020, 01:03:42 AM »
I think a simple line about all the research he's been doing on the objects would have been enough. Not a line that he's been doing research. We've seen lines about his search for Elaine, Susan, and Maggie. Jim doesn't always show us the dead ends Harry goes down. Sometimes he just shows or tells us where he finally gets the answer. Like Conspiracy Theorist said, Harry has a lot of resources at his fingertips.
I agree. Just seemed massively weird not to address such a big thing. But Jim's only human too. Also, the Placard turned out to be very much a fizzle. Barely even used. Waste of writing, I think. Unless Jim reveals events that happened off screen that made it useful.
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2020, 12:24:18 AM »
I see the placard as giving the bar an upgrade status for being a safe zone.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2020, 03:54:55 AM »
I see the placard as giving the bar an upgrade status for being a safe zone.
That would makes sense. I hope that's why Jim did it. It's surely at least setup for a later scene with Mac sacrificing himself and I suppose redeeming himself.
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: The Placard
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2020, 08:19:26 PM »
Minor spoiler for BG Harry had his library card withdrawn by the White Council apparently some time ago, so no to that source.
Just to the restricted section!

Also, the Placard turned out to be very much a fizzle. Barely even used. Waste of writing, I think. Unless Jim reveals events that happened off screen that made it useful.
Maybe. He used it to let us know about Mac. It could also just be set up for down the road for when he uses it at Castle Dresden or something.