Author Topic: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]  (Read 4107 times)

Offline vultur

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Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« on: September 09, 2020, 07:49:36 PM »
Luccio was significantly weakened by the body swap in DB, and Morgan took over battlefield command. Apparently the majority of the Wardens were also killed by the Red Court/gas attack during DB.

Then Morgan died in TC.

Harry is still technically a Warden for now, but he hasn't really been active as one in a while, with being dead and then stuck on Demonreach, plus Winter Knight stuff.

And now the Council is considering kicking him out...

So, who's left? Harry has said that there are more Wardens than before the war, but they're mostly new.

Ramirez is awesome, but I don't think he's anything like Morgan/Luccio level. He has more precision than Harry, and good magical endurance, but I don't think he has Harry/Morgan level raw power or Luccio-level skill.

I hope we'll see what the Wardens can do in BG...

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2020, 10:23:30 PM »
If you look in the trailer, Carlos unleashes his best effort briefly turning part of the flaming backdrop green. When Harry tells the Fomor to Friga off, all the flames turn blue for much longer and Carlos looks at Harry in alarm. Harry is much stronger than Carlos or any other Wizard near his age. Obviously Harry was also drawing on the Winter Mantle, and Carlos just realised what that mean’t as regards Harry’s relative power level

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2020, 12:49:34 AM »
Luccio is still far more formidable than Harry by virtue of precision, and she's had years since her last appearance to recover. And there are still the veterans who were escorting Mai in TC, unless they've been KIA skirmishing with the Fomor since Harry has been incommunicado.

Offline ClintACK

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2020, 01:13:22 AM »
The "heavy hitters" were the Brute Squad -- the ones that were killed at Archangelsk offscreen before Summer Knight.

I'd say no, there aren't any heavy hitters among the wardens whose names we know, outside of Chandler and Harry -- but there are probably a number of powerful wizards who never signed up. Too busy pyramid sitting or being very, very married.

But I guess we'll see -- we've been promised that a "complement" of Wardens will be summoned, which suggests more than the four who are already present.

Offline Mira

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2020, 05:01:23 AM »
The "heavy hitters" were the Brute Squad -- the ones that were killed at Archangelsk offscreen before Summer Knight.

I'd say no, there aren't any heavy hitters among the wardens whose names we know, outside of Chandler and Harry -- but there are probably a number of powerful wizards who never signed up. Too busy pyramid sitting or being very, very married.

But I guess we'll see -- we've been promised that a "complement" of Wardens will be summoned, which suggests more than the four who are already present.

Well, haven't we already seen them?  I mean a complement of Wardens jumped Harry in Peace Talks just before he saw Lara.  Can Eb be considered a Warden?  He was heading up the security and seemed to be in charge of them.  He is a very heavy hitter.

Offline vultur

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2020, 05:04:34 AM »
Luccio is still far more formidable than Harry by virtue of precision,

I don't think so... at least not more formidable in general.

In certain situations, absolutely she'd have an advantage - like having to fight in close quarters with innocent bystanders without gear to focus her spells (like Harry with the octokongs at the beginning of SG).

But in a more open fight, which was what I was thinking of in terms of "heavy hitters", I think current-era Harry's power advantage is too large for Luccio's skill advantage to cancel out.

If we were comparing pure basic wizard abilities, no Winter or Soulfire, that would probably be different.

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and she's had years since her last appearance to recover.

It's been years, yeah, but do we know if recovery is possible? (Or rather, more than she's already shown in SmF/TC, which are already a couple years after DB.)

If her new body just doesn't have the power capability of her old one (and I don't think that grad student was a wizard) she might have hit an upper limit.

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And there are still the veterans who were escorting Mai in TC, unless they've been KIA skirmishing with the Fomor since Harry has been incommunicado.

Oh sure. I am sure there are mid-list types still out there, but I doubt they are competitive with Luccio, Morgan, or current-era Harry.

The "heavy hitters" were the Brute Squad -- the ones that were killed at Archangelsk offscreen before Summer Knight.

I'd say no, there aren't any heavy hitters among the wardens whose names we know, outside of Chandler and Harry

Brute squad, good point. The Wardens really have been hit hard.

I'm not sure Chandler is really a "heavy hitter" in the sense I'm talking about, though he's important and not a "new-generation" Warden. He does time stuff and divination I think; probably he's intelligence, not front-line combat.

Can Eb be considered a Warden?  He was heading up the security and seemed to be in charge of them.  He is a very heavy hitter.

Eb's absolutely a heavy hitter, but I don't think he's a Warden anymore.

Though he apparently was one in the 19th century, I believe there's a reference to McCoy the Captain of the Wardens in "Fistful of Warlocks".

Offline Mira

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2020, 05:10:50 AM »
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Eb's absolutely a heavy hitter, but I don't think he's a Warden anymore.

Though he apparently was one in the 19th century, I believe there's a reference to McCoy the Captain of the Wardens in "Fistful of Warlocks".

Maybe once a Warden always a Warden?  Have to go back and reread a "Fistful of Warlocks,"
I don't remember that little fun fact, I guess because I didn't find that short story all that great.  However Eb seemed to be functioning as the Warden Captain for the talks, more so than Carlos.

Offline forumghost

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2020, 11:12:02 AM »
I don't think so... at least not more formidable in general.

In certain situations, absolutely she'd have an advantage - like having to fight in close quarters with innocent bystanders without gear to focus her spells (like Harry with the octokongs at the beginning of SG).

But in a more open fight, which was what I was thinking of in terms of "heavy hitters", I think current-era Harry's power advantage is too large for Luccio's skill advantage to cancel out.

I doubt it. We've seen what other Wizards can do in the series, and it's pretty clear that Harry... to be blunt, he sucks ass at Wizarding.

Luccio was already a better fighter then him in the goddamn frontier days, and she's has a lot of time to practice since then.

Molly, his half-baked Apprentice, notes that he's not as good as she is at Tracking Spells, one of the things that Harry considers himself good at.

And then there's Butters, who's doesn't even have the ability to use magic- and somehow, is still better at being a Wizard then Harry. Jim has always been an advocate of skill>power, it's why Murphy can defeat people three times her size with supernatural powers.

Sure Harry is a walking artillery cannon, but most decent Wizards would wreck him, and Luccio's had a fair amount of time to adjust to her new body since we last saw her, so she's probably not as crippled as she once was.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 11:19:54 AM by forumghost »

Offline kel0700

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2020, 11:32:36 AM »
Harry is one of the most dangerous combat wizards on the council, that was confirmed by eb in changes and Harry's powered up since then. There is still about 40 of the old guard Wardens left, they are all over a century old and Harry says he wouldn't like to fight with any of them. I think they're led by thorsen, he was mentioned by the merlin in turn coat, Harry refers to him has the big swede, my guess is thorsen has taken over Morgan roles has Co captain of the Wardens. Luccio's experience is invaluable and she's still a skilled wizard but she wouldn't last 60 seconds in a fight with Harry he's too strong for her.

Offline Mira

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2020, 11:37:40 AM »
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I doubt it. We've seen what other Wizards can do in the series, and it's pretty clear that Harry... to be blunt, he sucks ass at Wizarding.

Luccio was already a better fighter then him in the goddamn frontier days, and she's has a lot of time to practice since then.

Molly, his half-baked Apprentice, notes that he's not as good as she is at Tracking Spells, one of the things that Harry considers himself good at.

And then there's Butters, who's doesn't even have the ability to use magic- and somehow, is still better at being a Wizard then Harry. Jim has always been an advocate of skill>power, it's why Murphy can defeat people three times her size with supernatural powers.

Sure Harry is a walking artillery cannon, but most decent Wizards would wreck him, and Luccio's had a fair amount of time to adjust to her new body since we last saw her, so she's probably not as crippled as she once was.

1]  Not totally true, yes, Harry used to knock his own skills, but once Molly became his apprentice he went back to hit the books.  He can do stuff now that he never could before.  And he managed to out think the Black Staff and he is a pretty decent wizard I think.

2] Molly was never half baked, now she is Winter Lady, so I wouldn't want to mess with her.

3]  True for the most part about Murphy, but why is she crippled now?  Because she got out thought, tricked, and then Nic beat the snot out of her..  She tends to get arrogant thinking she knows best, and he exploited that to the max.

Offline ClintACK

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2020, 12:05:26 PM »
Well, haven't we already seen them?  I mean a complement of Wardens jumped Harry in Peace Talks just before he saw Lara.  Can Eb be considered a Warden?  He was heading up the security and seemed to be in charge of them.  He is a very heavy hitter.

Those were the Wardens who were already present to act as security for the Senior Council members attending the talks. They were in the room when LTW promised to "summon" a "complement" of wardens to contribute to the defense, so I'd assume more are on the way.

(Although time is short, so who knows if any will arrive in time -- or how senior or heavy-hitting they'll be. I'd imagine Edinburgh is locked down hard right now. With an attack on the Peace Talks and an attack on the Outer Gates, everyone in the supernatural world has to be worried about an attack during the big distraction.)

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2020, 01:27:31 PM »
The Wardens are seriously underpowered to police the world, not just individual power but numbers. No wonder Harry recruits a mob. The Wardens need to recruit a National Guard of Paranetters and clued up vanilla mortals to aid in major emergencies. Sounds like a job for Murphy.

Offline Mira

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2020, 01:56:15 PM »
The Wardens are seriously underpowered to police the world, not just individual power but numbers. No wonder Harry recruits a mob. The Wardens need to recruit a National Guard of Paranetters and clued up vanilla mortals to aid in major emergencies. Sounds like a job for Murphy.

Yeah, but will she do it?  She might view recruiting fighters as an effort to keep her safe.. From the trailer, she either was cured by some miracle because she seems to be in the middle of the fight, or it is misleading.  You point out one of the flaws of Peace Talks, it does little to set up a plausible defense, the Wardens seemed more worried about what Harry was up to than setting up good security for the talks.  Hell, they didn't even have any stone Foo Dogs to check out the attendees.   

Offline ClintACK

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2020, 02:09:17 PM »
Yeah, but will she do it?  She might view recruiting fighters as an effort to keep her safe.. From the trailer, she either was cured by some miracle because she seems to be in the middle of the fight, or it is misleading.  You point out one of the flaws of Peace Talks, it does little to set up a plausible defense, the Wardens seemed more worried about what Harry was up to than setting up good security for the talks.  Hell, they didn't even have any stone Foo Dogs to check out the attendees.

The wardens weren't in charge of security for the talks -- just security for the Senior Councilors who attended. Marcone was in charge of overall security -- hence, what's-his-name with the living dog and all the einherjar who get gunned down like useless redshirts by the fomor mooks.

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« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 02:11:17 PM by ClintACK »

Offline Mira

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Re: Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2020, 02:28:13 PM »
The wardens weren't in charge of security for the talks -- just security for the Senior Councilors who attended. Marcone was in charge of overall security -- hence, what's-his-name with the living dog and all the einherjar who get gunned down like useless redshirts by the fomor mooks.

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My question is, how is she able to do it in the first place?  The RPG thingy has weight, and I doubt are totally without a kick of some sort.  Her shoulder and arm are still injured, so how does she manage that?  To ride a motorcycle requires balance, which is difficult to maintain if one has crippling injuries especially with a big man like Harry sitting behind you.  Not to mention that it isn't going to be a clear straight street that she'd be driving down.  Dodging and turning and jumping over with the bike requires strength to compensate, she isn't in the shape she was in in Cold Days.
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Marcone was in charge of overall security -- hence, what's-his-name with the living dog and all the einherjar who get gunned down like useless redshirts by the fomor mooks.

Yeah, Vadderung and Gard ought to be ashamed of themselves.. The dead warriors they picked to go to Vahalla to fight in the final battle are next to useless..  Unless it was all a set up and a diversion. Which brings me back to the continual whine about the Senior Council suddenly wanting to kick Harry out of the White Council and demote him back to apprentice? What's the point of that?