Raith Reservoir [Peace Talks Spoilers]

[vultur]

If the vessel were designed to store spirit energy in the form it was gathered, wouldn't it remain consumable?

Probably not.

Sure, a wizard could probably make an item that accumulated emotions as magical energy and could release blasts of emotion - like Elaine's memory-storage ring in SK.

But wizards' ability to work with magical energy is much more "broad spectrum".

If Elaine made an emotion-storage ring instead of a memory-storage one, I don't think a WCV could feed on it.

Because I don't think the WCVs actually feed on emotions themselves - instead they use the emotion as a "conduit" to feed on life force. The WCV power is a lot more narrowly limited than the wizard's one, and I don't think it can interface with items.

I think there's just no way for them to get around the need to feed.

[Grifter]

Probably not.

Sure, a wizard could probably make an item that accumulated emotions as magical energy and could release blasts of emotion - like Elaine's memory-storage ring in SK.

But wizards' ability to work with magical energy is much more "broad spectrum".

If Elaine made an emotion-storage ring instead of a memory-storage one, I don't think a WCV could feed on it.

Because I don't think the WCVs actually feed on emotions themselves - instead they use the emotion as a "conduit" to feed on life force. The WCV power is a lot more narrowly limited than the wizard's one, and I don't think it can interface with items.

I think there's just no way for them to get around the need to feed.

I'm willing to accept that you can't see it being viable, but I'm still not seeing *why* you think that.

Spellwork and enchanted items have been shown to store energy in specific forms that also retain emotional responses. 

Your take is that they need to feed on raw spiritual energy, which has been shown to be compatible with being bottled (belt buckle). It even invoked emotions, meaning it was 'flavored'.

You say they need the emotional aspect, but then you also say the emotional aspect doesn't really seem to matter. Like it's just a method for them to stoke the spirit and open the tap of the victim.

So if they don't need the emotional aspect, then the belt buckle would work for them as-is. It would just need to be designed to allow a wamp to draw on its energy, which I think could be done. If inanimate objects filled with power can hurt the wamp, like a True Love wedding ring, why can't inanimate objects filled with power be used to feed them? 

If they do need the emotion, then it's just a matter of capturing the essence of the method. I think we've seen several times how Harry will calm the mind or settle himself because his emotions can taint his spellwork.  So the wizard would have to design the item to do the opposite.

[vultur]

I'm willing to accept that you can't see it being viable, but I'm still not seeing *why* you think that.

Three reasons:

Out-of-universe, it's too easy a fix; the White Court just aren't able to live as "normal people".

In-universe, if this was possible, why didn't Harry build something like this for Thomas when he was fighting his Hunger between BR and TC? Even if Harry didn't know enough about the Hunger's nature, Lara does; why didn't she suggest Harry do thaumaturgy to feed raw magic to Thomas' Hunger in PT?

In-universe, it doesn't really fit the way the feeding is described to work IMO. It's been described as merging auras with the prey. I think it needs an actual coherent aura/spirit of a sentient living being*, not just "X quantity of life-magic energy".

*Maybe a close-enough-to-mortal being ... we've seen it used on part-humans in "Backup" and "Bigfoot on Campus", but never on totally-inhuman things. Kind of doubt it would work on Bob or Kalshazzak or an Outsider.

Your take is that they need to feed on raw spiritual energy, which has been shown to be compatible with being bottled (belt buckle).

Not quite. I think what is being consumed is "generic" life force energy - not specifically fear energy or lust energy. But the mode of access to that energy isn't compatible with anything other than a near-human being... an item can't work since the item itself doesn't have a spirit or experience emotion.

Like it's just a method for them to stoke the spirit and open the tap of the victim.

Basically, yeah... Thomas' Hunger demon can eat his own life force directly. So the emotions provide access to energy not energy itself.

It's not like a person has separate stores of "lust energy" and "fear energy" and "despair energy" and so on. A person has a certain amount of life force, and there are different ways to access it. (Wizards & other spellcasters can draw on their own life force, sometimes using emotions, sometimes not.)

Someone drained to zero by the White Court dies; they don't become dispassionate or fearless or whatever. And in "Bigfoot on Campus" we see that a being with more life energy than the Hunger Demon can handle can survive a normally-fatal feeding. That pretty much confirms that it's "life force" not specifically "emotion type" energy.

[Grifter]

Three reasons:

Out-of-universe, it's too easy a fix; the White Court just aren't able to live as "normal people".

In-universe, if this was possible, why didn't Harry build something like this for Thomas when he was fighting his Hunger between BR and TC? Even if Harry didn't know enough about the Hunger's nature, Lara does; why didn't she suggest Harry do thaumaturgy to feed raw magic to Thomas' Hunger in PT?

In-universe, it doesn't really fit the way the feeding is described to work IMO. It's been described as merging auras with the prey. I think it needs an actual coherent aura/spirit of a sentient living being*, not just "X quantity of life-magic energy".

*Maybe a close-enough-to-mortal being ... we've seen it used on part-humans in "Backup" and "Bigfoot on Campus", but never on totally-inhuman things. Kind of doubt it would work on Bob or Kalshazzak or an Outsider.

Not quite. I think what is being consumed is "generic" life force energy - not specifically fear energy or lust energy. But the mode of access to that energy isn't compatible with anything other than a near-human being... an item can't work since the item itself doesn't have a spirit or experience emotion.

Basically, yeah... Thomas' Hunger demon can eat his own life force directly. So the emotions provide access to energy not energy itself.

It's not like a person has separate stores of "lust energy" and "fear energy" and "despair energy" and so on. A person has a certain amount of life force, and there are different ways to access it. (Wizards & other spellcasters can draw on their own life force, sometimes using emotions, sometimes not.)

Someone drained to zero by the White Court dies; they don't become dispassionate or fearless or whatever. And in "Bigfoot on Campus" we see that a being with more life energy than the Hunger Demon can handle can survive a normally-fatal feeding. That pretty much confirms that it's "life force" not specifically "emotion type" energy.

I still think you're misunderstanding the scope of this project.  It's not to replace feeding.  It's not to make feeding obsolete.  In fact, it's still dependent on feeding normally, to stock up the item. 

It's more like an energy bar for the demon to munch on if things get desperate.  It could be used to continue a fight (briefly) that otherwise would be lost due to running out of energy, or to prevent the demon from turning on the host until they can get a regular feeding.

It wouldn't do anything to change the lifestyle of the wamp. It's not an alternative, it's a backup.

As for the energy, we'll just have to disagree on the storagability of the energy the wamp draws and feeds from. 

The wamp would still be drawing out the energy in the usual method themselves.  A little bit would just be directed to the item, which would store it as it is.  Then, if they tapped into it, the energy would come out just like it went in.  Just like other energy storage we've seen.

[vultur]

I still think you're misunderstanding the scope of this project.  It's not to replace feeding.  It's not to make feeding obsolete.  In fact, it's still dependent on feeding normally, to stock up the item.

The problem is that if this is possible - if a White Court Vampire can feed on energy stored in an inanimate object - then a wizard could just as easily fill up that object with energy drawn from a spell.

Harry uses "life force" energy in his spells too, he can even fuel them with emotions. It's the same energy. So the only way to keep this from happening, IMO, is if the Hunger demon is incapable of feeding on anything except a human or near-human (or at least sentient) being.

Sure, a WCV couldn't fill up the item itself without feeding (unless it was also a spellcaster). But that wouldn't keep Harry from being able to fill up such an item, if it could exist.

[Grifter]

The problem is that if this is possible - if a White Court Vampire can feed on energy stored in an inanimate object - then a wizard could just as easily fill up that object with energy drawn from a spell.

Harry uses "life force" energy in his spells too, he can even fuel them with emotions. It's the same energy. So the only way to keep this from happening, IMO, is if the Hunger demon is incapable of feeding on anything except a human or near-human (or at least sentient) being.

Sure, a WCV couldn't fill up the item itself without feeding (unless it was also a spellcaster). But that wouldn't keep Harry from being able to fill up such an item, if it could exist.

I'm not saying they can consume just any spiritual energy. I think they have a method that works for them, and that's what would have to be done to make the energy compatible.  I think we're both in agreement that them being able to consume just any spiritual energy doesn't make sense.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I don't know if anyone has stated this explicitly, but maybe it would be possible for a wizard to create some kind of spiritual tank to hold life force energy that a White Court vampire could partake from, but the only way to make it viable would be for the wizard to take another person's life force energy to make it work, that nothing else would do.  So the guilt of taking this energy would be once removed from the vampire to the wizard, but wouldn't really absolve either party of doing this. 

I'd probably have to add that the difficulty to the wizard of taking a small amount of life energy would make it uneconomical.  Too much effort for too little return so they would in effect have to really drain if not always kill the victim.  So maybe it would work but be just as bad.   

[vultur]

I'm not saying they can consume just any spiritual energy. I think they have a method that works for them, and that's what would have to be done to make the energy compatible.  I think we're both in agreement that them being able to consume just any spiritual energy doesn't make sense.

OK.

I guess I just think that if they could feed on their own form of energy stored in an item, that would probably make them able to feed on "just any spiritual energy" indirectly, with help from a wizard (who could use thaumaturgy to move energy and transform the energy to the right form).

I mean, we don't know about DV magic-physics to say that for sure, but that seems to be how wizard magic is described - it's all about moving energy around (Harry says that this is the core principle of Eb's textbook "Elementary Magic").

For it not to be "cheatable" in this way, I think White Court Hunger has to be fundamentally different from wizard magic and actually require feeding on a living spirit. Once you add the ability to store power - or to derive energy from anything other than a living being with a spirit - I think you open it up for "cheating".