Why, Thomas, Why? (Peace Talks Spoilers)

[ClintACK]

Two bits of speculation on why Thomas did what he did.

1) Is it Harry's fault? Harry lays on some serious "new dad" weight-of-the-world in the first chapter. He basically tells Thomas that it's time to get serious and do absolutely anything it takes to get out from under his Hunger, or else he's a bad dad.

Remember who Thomas's father was, and how terrified he must be that he'll be like that with his own kids.

Then Eb -- Thomas's grandfather, though Eb doesn't know it -- lets his violent hatred of the White Court fly before basically chasing Thomas off.

Could that sequence of events have driven Thomas to make a Faustian bargain of some kind? Perhaps one where he wasn't meant to survive, but Justine and the child would be safe? (That sort of suicidal/homicidal protectiveness seems to run in the McCoy side of the family.)

2) Is it Eb's fault? After the fight with Harry, Eb is basically thrown out by Etri and has to be still fuming about the argument and all his familial-protectiveness and I-know-better-than-you arrogance are focused on the need to prove to Harry that (a) White Court Vampires are treacherous and a horrific danger (to Harry and especially to Maggie) and (b) the Svartalves aren't cuddly and nice and should also be kept as far away from Maggie as possible.

Eb is the Blackstaff. He is authorized to break the Laws of Magic. In his mind, Harry is making a horrific mistake and endangering his great-granddaughter by exposing her to evil fairies and the White Court (just like his Maggie!).

Could Eb have mind-whammied Thomas into attacking Etri? (It would even feel a bit like poetic justice, wouldn't it? Mind-whammy my grandson, will you? I'll show you a mind-whammy!)

[Niall001]

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I'm pretty sure Justine made him do it. With the proviso that I'm not certain if what we see is really Justine and that I don't know if was some form of mind control or just blackmail. Thomas keeps saying her name as a warning.

[ClintACK]

@Niall

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"Justine made him do it" is definitely high on the list, but it leaves open both how and why. And was it Justine acting for herself, or for some other power? Did Nemesis do it as a distraction before the Last Titan's arrival? Did Lara do it to set up a fight where she could gain something from the svartalves and from using Harry to rescue Thomas? Did Mab arrange it to drive a wedge between Harry and his other support networks?

One more theory -- Thomas came home from the troubling conversation with Harry (and Eb) and started getting emotional about the problems of raising a White Court baby and the risk to Justine of the pregnancy and Justine finally told him the shocking truth: it's not his baby. In Bombshells, while he was servicing the Svartalves, Justine had a quickie of her own with Etri, the baby's actual father.

[Mira]

@Niall

(click to show/hide)

"Justine made him do it" is definitely high on the list, but it leaves open both how and why. And was it Justine acting for herself, or for some other power? Did Nemesis do it as a distraction before the Last Titan's arrival? Did Lara do it to set up a fight where she could gain something from the svartalves and from using Harry to rescue Thomas? Did Mab arrange it to drive a wedge between Harry and his other support networks?

One more theory -- Thomas came home from the troubling conversation with Harry (and Eb) and started getting emotional about the problems of raising a White Court baby and the risk to Justine of the pregnancy and Justine finally told him the shocking truth: it's not his baby. In Bombshells, while he was servicing the Svartalves, Justine had a quickie of her own with Etri, the baby's actual father.

  I think that is pretty far fetched.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I like the Eb theory, he may have also been trying to show Harry he was right as regards Maggie, it means Eb has to take Thomas’s place in Etri’s punishment. Maybe he didn’t realise how close Thomas would get. Eb has come over quite speciest as well towards Etri’s people.

[dresden11]

I think this being, in anyway, a Fomor plot is shaky.  The Fomor have literally 0 reasons to care about infighting with the Accords Nations.  They are kicking off their war, and they don't care about what the other side is doing.  Thus there are no reasons for the Fomor to be behind Justine's or Thomas' actions. 

Eb using some black magic on the other hand to force Thomas is an interesting theory. This would cause Harry to lose any trust he has in Eb.  Plus it would suit Eb's plans.  He hates the White Court.  Them being destroyed or very hurt in a war would very much please him.  Though you have to ask the question of why are the feds watching Justine?  They shouldn't even have her on their radar.  So maybe its something else to do with the government.  That whole plotline makes no sense because no one really benefits from it.  And I don't see it being resolved very well in Battlegrounds because that book will take place during 1 day if not just the night.  Thomas will still be locked up for most if not all the book.  All the signs are pointing to Justine causing the assassination, but yet again we are left with no reasons or even any clues about a possible reason why this would happen.  I just hope we get payoff otherwise it will be a stupid plotline that went nowhere and has no relevance. 

[vultur]

It might be Oblivion War stuff... Etri might have some dangerous knowledge that the Venatori want gone. I wonder whether the Archive could order an attack on an Accorded nation for that purpose?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

[It might be Oblivion War stuff... Etri might have some dangerous knowledge that the Venatori want gone. I wonder whether the Archive could order an attack on an Accorded nation for that purpose?[/quote]

Maybe Etri does know everything about Titanic Bronze, however I suspect the Athame and the Swords can get through it anyhow. We haven’t seen anything about the oblivion war except a short story, but it was in that story that Thomas showed his limited magical talent, again referenced in Peace Talks for only the second time.

[noblehunter]

When the Thomas short story was written, Butcher didn't think the Oblivion War would even impinge enough on Harry to make into the main series. It was still the case when Butcher revealed that the war was orchestrated by the Archive.

He might have changed his mind, but for the moment, I think that's grounds to dismiss the Oblivion War as an explanation for Thomas' actions.

[Grifter]

For one thing, I'm not convinced Thomas was trying to say "Justine".  They might just be Harry's wrong assumption.  Maybe he was trying to say "Jade Court".  I think there was a suggestion at one point that we might see an operative of theirs in Peace Talks.  Or maybe it was "Justin DuMorne" back from the dead and causing trouble.

I know it's probably a stretch for either, but still. A betrayal from Justine seems less likely to me.

In other news, I would have loved a scene with nearly dead and feral Thomas trying to feed on Murphy during the escape.  That might have added another layer to the conflict.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Ivy didn’t approach Dresden at either event, guilt over Thomas?

The Oblivion War is to remove certain rituals from human and other knowledge, including those which summon Outsiders, someone whistled in the Corner Hounds, someone among the Svartalves? Maybe Austri was the target all along? Or Etri or Evanna.

The archive will know every recorded fact about White Court Vampires, their origin, how to defeat their hunger, how to stop a Whamp baby feeding on the mother, and how to ensure a whamp reproduces. A pregnancy test, sonargram etc are both recorded information, Ivy would know because of her intellectus without bugging Thomas and Justine, when even Lara doesn’t know, which explains the absence of bugs or magic in Thomas Flat, which Harry took a lot of time establishing.

[Gman]

I think this being, in anyway, a Fomor plot is shaky.  The Fomor have literally 0 reasons to care about infighting with the Accords Nations.  They are kicking off their war, and they don't care about what the other side is doing.  Thus there are no reasons for the Fomor to be behind Justine's or Thomas' actions. 

Eb using some black magic on the other hand to force Thomas is an interesting theory. This would cause Harry to lose any trust he has in Eb.  Plus it would suit Eb's plans.  He hates the White Court.  Them being destroyed or very hurt in a war would very much please him.  Though you have to ask the question of why are the feds watching Justine?  They shouldn't even have her on their radar.  So maybe its something else to do with the government.  That whole plotline makes no sense because no one really benefits from it.  And I don't see it being resolved very well in Battlegrounds because that book will take place during 1 day if not just the night.  Thomas will still be locked up for most if not all the book.  All the signs are pointing to Justine causing the assassination, but yet again we are left with no reasons or even any clues about a possible reason why this would happen.  I just hope we get payoff otherwise it will be a stupid plotline that went nowhere and has no relevance.

I think the Fomor or their allies threatened Thomas by saying the would go after pregnent Justine. They see the Svartalves as a threat and want payback for killing one of their nobles in Bombshells.
I think they see Dresden as a threat and sent Rudolph to go after Murphy and Harry to distract him. Having Thomas be in trouble also distracts Dresden. As Marcone said, they want to divide their enemies and take them out one at a time. It could be Cowl or Outsiders. They seem to be Fomor allies. They want Dresden and the Svartalves to be at odds too.

[Vairelome]

I have a different theory that...maybe fits.  Thomas was tricked/coerced/whatever by Mab.

We know that Mab has favors outstanding with various people and has been trying to balance the books (Skin Game involved cancelling a favor owed to Nicodemus, which is its own WTF).  IIRC, Lara Raith picked up three favors from Mab, who has taken care of one of them as of the beginning of Peace Talks.  I believe Lara then uses both of the remaining favors during Peace Talks to force the rescue of Thomas, which gets Mab free of those obligations.

(Alternately, Mab didn't set up Thomas, but knew enough in advance to take advantage of the situation with respect to her debt to Lara.  This might be more likely, though it leaves the "why, Thomas?" question unanswered.)

[forumghost]

I think the Fomor or their allies threatened Thomas by saying the would go after pregnent Justine. They see the Svartalves as a threat and want payback for killing one of their nobles in Bombshells.
I think they see Dresden as a threat and sent Rudolph to go after Murphy and Harry to distract him. Having Thomas be in trouble also distracts Dresden. As Marcone said, they want to divide their enemies and take them out one at a time. It could be Cowl or Outsiders. They seem to be Fomor allies. They want Dresden and the Svartalves to be at odds too.

Personally I doubt that either the thing with Thomas or Rudolph was the Fomor.

If they had actually been faking being a part of the Peace Talks and trying to politic backstab things then yeah, but King Corb basically walked in most of the way through the Summit that He called just to slap everyone in the face with his shlong and say "Imma sack a City, try and stop me if you dare".

So yeah, I think there are other players at work here, and the real diversion is the Titan/Fomor Army.

Also, Marcone totally made it way to easy to get Thomas out. My money is on him outplaying Lara and Harry there, deliberately letting them take him while recording it to either force Mab to remove them or to leverage the information for something from them.

Hmm... Perhaps Rudy and Thomas were Marcone's plays against Harry, and then a God shows up for a throwdown just as he was planning to enact his plan to remove them both?

[Grifter]

I have a different theory that...maybe fits.  Thomas was tricked/coerced/whatever by Mab.

We know that Mab has favors outstanding with various people and has been trying to balance the books (Skin Game involved cancelling a favor owed to Nicodemus, which is its own WTF).  IIRC, Lara Raith picked up three favors from Mab, who has taken care of one of them as of the beginning of Peace Talks.  I believe Lara then uses both of the remaining favors during Peace Talks to force the rescue of Thomas, which gets Mab free of those obligations.

(Alternately, Mab didn't set up Thomas, but knew enough in advance to take advantage of the situation with respect to her debt to Lara.  This might be more likely, though it leaves the "why, Thomas?" question unanswered.)

I remember thinking early on in the book that Lara used her first favor from Mab to get Mab to force Thomas, via a favor he owed Mab, to make the attempt. 

But even without knowing for sure that Thomas actually owed Mab, it doesn't really hold up with Lara then undoing all of that with her other favors.  The only thing she'd gain is the opportunity to seem family-oriented to help her relationship with Harry and ultimately seduce him, but she couldn't keep him from finding out eventually, and runs the risk of pissing Mab off by violating her accords twice.  So I'm not sure it's viable for her to be responsible.

Conversely, as you suggest, Mab could have done it, but she runs the same risks of alienating Harry if he finds out her role. Ditching some favors seems like less of a net win if it turns your starborn Knight against you.