Author Topic: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]  (Read 1162 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2020, 11:06:19 AM »
But also a parent who can not properly start a discussion with his 40 year old grandchild. It is difficult because you will always see him as your baby but at a certain moment you need to handle him as an adult.

  That is a difficult transition, but he has had the last twenty years to attempt it, and he didn't. 

Offline SerScot

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2020, 11:07:13 AM »
Harry instincts have been wrong, yes, but he has soulgazed Eb. I don't think he is so wrong about him. Besides, Eb reaction to Harry's words were (IMHO) more like a caring parent who does not want to admit that what he did was wrong than like a bastard who does not care at all-

The Soulgaze isnít a lie detector.  Ebís priorities may sincerely be screwed up.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2020, 11:33:54 AM »
  That is a difficult transition, but he has had the last twenty years to attempt it, and he didn't.
Because of another problem. How often in those last twenty years did they actually talk to each other? I do not think that much. If you do not see someone that often it is easy to fall into old patterns of behavior.
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Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2020, 02:06:00 PM »
Because of another problem. How often in those last twenty years did they actually talk to each other? I do not think that much. If you do not see someone that often it is easy to fall into old patterns of behavior.

  True, however if it is important, you make the time.  Especially in the light of how alienated Harry was after the first time he and Eb had that talk back in Blood Rites.  It took a while for Harry to forgive him for those lies.  They have to work together, lives are on the line, Eb should have made the time, for that matter so should have Harry.  You don't and you get the little explosions we saw in
chapter four, especially after the angry lecture on Eb's part..  Harry is bound to push back and push back hard because he is working off of limited facts and the emotion from all the pain he has suffered because his grandfather wanted to keep him, "safe."   Harry has to have the facts behind Eb's extreme measures to keep both him and Margaret "safe."  If he understood it would be a hell of a lot better for both of them.

Offline Regenbogen

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2020, 03:04:56 PM »
  True, however if it is important, you make the time.  Especially in the light of how alienated Harry was after the first time he and Eb had that talk back in Blood Rites.  It took a while for Harry to forgive him for those lies.  They have to work together, lives are on the line, Eb should have made the time, for that matter so should have Harry.  You don't and you get the little explosions we saw in
chapter four, especially after the angry lecture on Eb's part..  Harry is bound to push back and push back hard because he is working off of limited facts and the emotion from all the pain he has suffered because his grandfather wanted to keep him, "safe."   Harry has to have the facts behind Eb's extreme measures to keep both him and Margaret "safe."  If he understood it would be a hell of a lot better for both of them.
Agreed. They both should have talked long ago and they both didn't. But why? Because they are wizards? Because they are male  ;)? Because they are stubborn?

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Offline g33k

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2020, 05:35:41 PM »
Don't forget that Susan made the same exact choice, based on what she knew -- to bury Maggie in obscurity with a foster-family, rather than put her at risk in Harry's life.  If not for Martin's betrayal, that may even have worked out well!

And when Luccio learned of Maggie, she cautioned Harry that the secret needed to be buried incredibly deep.

So it's not just Eb having this impulse...  So I conclude it's a pretty common / common-sensical approach in the Dresdenverse.  (I grant you:  maybe not just ward-of-the-state rando-fostercare-placement).
 

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2020, 07:10:16 PM »
I think Eb's ideas of safety for his family was just on the supernatural side of things and it's just shows how out of touch wizards' society is when all the mortal/'vanilla' dangers aren't considered. I think that's the big reason why he's having so hard a time with what Harry's saying to him. Or at least it's a big factor in it.
Correct if I'm wrong, but wasn't Harry's falling into the cracks at least a little magical, or is that just an impression I got from 'Journal'?

Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2020, 07:36:36 PM »
Quote
Don't forget that Susan made the same exact choice, based on what she knew -- to bury Maggie in obscurity with a foster-family, rather than put her at risk in Harry's life.  If not for Martin's betrayal, that may even have worked out well!

I am not totally convinced that was Susan's real reason.   Given what she was and what she was doing, it was pretty dangerous for her to have little Maggie around.  I am not sure she could get a baby sitter either on a moment's notice.  Given her bitterness towards Harry when they first meet up again in Changes, it was more to punish Harry by not telling him than a motive to keep little Maggie safe in my opinion.  If keeping her safe was Susan's real motive, she would have put her up for a blind adoption when she was born, then little Maggie would have been safely out of both their lives.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2020, 07:59:08 PM »
@Mira: Yeah, it seems really weird Susan would keep Harry out of Maggie's life but not do the same thing herself.
Course the real reason is b/c if she did that then the plot wouldn't happen.

Offline Arjan

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2020, 08:33:50 PM »
@Mira: Yeah, it seems really weird Susan would keep Harry out of Maggie's life but not do the same thing herself.
Course the real reason is b/c if she did that then the plot wouldn't happen.
She couldn't. It is maybe not rational or safe but very human.
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Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2020, 08:52:17 PM »
She couldn't. It is maybe not rational or safe but very human.
   Also very human for her to not tell Harry out of bitterness, blaming him for her predicament, not just being a half vamp, but pregnant as well. 

Offline Dina

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2020, 06:57:33 AM »
Both of them had unprotected sex, and she was the one not taking measures the day after.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2020, 08:51:35 AM »
   Also very human for her to not tell Harry out of bitterness, blaming him for her predicament, not just being a half vamp, but pregnant as well.
How do you know it was bitterness? It is clear they never stopped loving each other. I see no reason not to believe her stated motivation, living around Harry is dangerous.

And a relation with a half vampire would be problematic. Problematic enough not to try it? You can disagree with Susan and still believe that is what she thought.

And now living around Susan was dangerous too. She saw it but she could not cut herself off from her child completely. That is how people are.

And yes she should not have taken that decision alone because it was not just her child but that is how a lot of women think and one of the reasons a divorce can be so problematic but the feelings are real. Which is totally different from the feelings are right.

Trust your feelings is not always a good idea.
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Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2020, 11:03:06 AM »
Quote
How do you know it was bitterness? It is clear they never stopped loving each other. I see no reason not to believe her stated motivation, living around Harry is dangerous.

Her accusations during their first meeting in Changes. Her words were full of resentment, she took no responsibility for her predicament.  She knew being around Harry was dangerous from Storm Front,yet she found it exciting and that very danger a key to her success, her decision to stick around.  She was blaming Harry because of what happened to little Maggie.  Now granted I imagine Martin was fueling a lot of this resentment for his own purposes.  Susan is a selfish being from the beginning, that is why things turned out the way they did, she finally realized that in the end. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2020, 11:56:12 AM »
Her accusations during their first meeting in Changes. Her words were full of resentment, she took no responsibility for her predicament.  She knew being around Harry was dangerous from Storm Front,yet she found it exciting and that very danger a key to her success, her decision to stick around.  She was blaming Harry because of what happened to little Maggie.  Now granted I imagine Martin was fueling a lot of this resentment for his own purposes.  Susan is a selfish being from the beginning, that is why things turned out the way they did, she finally realized that in the end.
Fear of rejection and guilt for not involving Harry in her child. It makes more aggressive people lash out to silence all objections. She was not blaming Harry for her own choices, she was trying to defend them and part of that was telling Harry some things. Hurtful things no doubt but that happens. It is a wild cocktail of emotions for both of them but bitterness is not the driving force.

For what shows their feelings most they actually behave like a couple. They tell themselves all sort of reasons why they shouldn't but they do.

Even in their fights.

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