Author Topic: The Fates and the Norns and scissors  (Read 3688 times)

Offline morriswalters

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The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« on: June 02, 2020, 06:06:08 PM »
Ok, this is basically just a couple of questions. Evidently since Harry called Mother Winter by Atropos and Skuld he seems to think she is one of the Fates and one of the Norn.  Atropos had a set of shears that cut the sting of, well we'll call it life.  Are these shears the Black Staff?

And if Mother Winter is one of the Fates, is Mother Summer one of the other ones? And if she is, who is the third Fate.  Is Mab one?

Bonus point.  Evidently one of the Fates went all murderous and got themselves a Titan.  How weird is that?

Offline Mira

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2020, 07:46:20 PM »
Ok, this is basically just a couple of questions. Evidently since Harry called Mother Winter by Atropos and Skuld he seems to think she is one of the Fates and one of the Norn.  Atropos had a set of shears that cut the sting of, well we'll call it life.  Are these shears the Black Staff?

And if Mother Winter is one of the Fates, is Mother Summer one of the other ones? And if she is, who is the third Fate.  Is Mab one?

Bonus point.  Evidently one of the Fates went all murderous and got themselves a Titan.  How weird is that?

If they are like the classic Greek Myth, they are like sheep shears.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2020, 10:46:17 PM »
Yes, I get that.  Thus scissors. However I am minded of Changes when Eb uses the Black Staff to kill the ?guards? that it was a lot like cutting the strings of a puppets.  They just died.  On the other hand dropping space debris on Ortega is more old school like shooting someone with a gun. Just, well, with bigger bullets.  Maybe the shears have a disguise, like Rashid's eye.

Offline Mira

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2020, 11:30:18 PM »
Yes, I get that.  Thus scissors. However I am minded of Changes when Eb uses the Black Staff to kill the ?guards? that it was a lot like cutting the strings of a puppets.  They just died.  On the other hand dropping space debris on Ortega is more old school like shooting someone with a gun. Just, well, with bigger bullets.  Maybe the shears have a disguise, like Rashid's eye.

   I doubt that Eb used the Black Staff to drag that satellite Ortega's head,  this is the guy who had something to do with Krakatoa blowing up.. But then again, maybe he use it for that too? ::)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2020, 02:36:52 AM »
   I doubt that Eb used the Black Staff to drag that satellite Ortega's head,  this is the guy who had something to do with Krakatoa blowing up.. But then again, maybe he use it for that too? ::)

The Blackstaff was used in Krakatoa, and on Ortega. Ebenezar confesses to it when he is revealing what he is. He doesn't outright tell Harry about the actual staff and it's functions (although he should have as Harry might not have been so mad about it). We only find out from Jim that the Blackstaff protects Eb from black magic. I don't believe the books ever state it which means Harry just accepts that Eb violates the laws of magic with no protection. But as far as we know, Eb would have used the Blackstaff's power to insulate himself from the corrupting power of dark magic. If he didn't he would look like a raving mad warlock, wouldn't he? Curiously - when it comes to senior wizards it seems some don't look completely foaming at the mouth crazy (like Grevane or Corpsetaker) and seem to be relatively normal (like Cowl and to some extent, Kemmler).


Morris - I think this was discussed way back and Jim said the angle is wrong and needed to be rotated 90 degrees. Which is to say - Mother Summer is the Crone, Titania is the Mother, and Sarissa is the Virgin (or whatever format you like) AND Mother Winter is the Crone, Mab is the Mother, Molly is the Virgin. My point (and Jim's implication) is the Fates were split in two. There is the Summer Fates and the Winter Fates. I have no idea why. My only guess is that the God (or Gods) that they may have been or absorbed had to be separated due to some stipulation around Outsiders and probably humanity. There has to be a polarity, or perhaps better to say a duality. I am sure it will revolve around some cosmic metaphor. Light and Dark, Yin and Yang.

It gets even more complicated when there are also clear Judeo-Christian themes involved. The teeth in the cottage representing the Four Horsemen (as some have guessed) and the artifacts/weapons of the Christ in Hades. Further still there other themes - the old Cottage itself is reminiscent of the witch in Hansel and Gretel but also Baba Yaga's house and many other such folk tales. There are also strong connections to Scottish and Irish mythology beyond the Faerie stuff. There are many references to other European (particularly Norse and Slavic) mythology and of course the Three Witches in Macbeth, the Grey Ladies, the Triple Goddess in Wicca etc. Even other works of fiction like the Chronicles of Prydain (one of Jim's favourites) Orddu, Orwen and Orgoch. It's fascinating to dig into but I have found it doesn't give all that much more clarity, instead just spins off more possibilities. The obvious thing is that being creatures of magic and reliant on belief, the Queens of Faerie are all of these things. This is a big part of their power. That's what the mantle is. Jim hints at this when he talks about the mantle of "Strongest" going from Hercules to the Hulk.

Your comment about the guards makes me wonder if Eb actually provides the magic to do the black magic, or whether the blackstaff itself forces Mother Winter to do it. If so, she would be pretty pissed I imagine. And as for being in disguise - that makes some sense. Although Rashid's eye is secret because he is engaged in a secret war for Reality against sleeper agents (among other things). It might not be necessary to hide the Blackstaff in the same way. 

Also, what did you mean when you said they "got all murderous and got themselves a Titan"? What event are you referring to?

I must admit I had considered the possibility that this so-called "Last Titan" (so-called because I wouldn't put it past Jim to have another show up) might be actually a third Court/Fate trio. This being seems to be an order of magnitude above Mab, according to the blurb. This puts it around the same level as the Mothers. Perhaps it has it's own Queen and Lady under it.






Offline Arjan

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2020, 02:59:02 AM »
   I doubt that Eb used the Black Staff to drag that satellite Ortega's head,  this is the guy who had something to do with Krakatoa blowing up.. But then again, maybe he use it for that too? ::)
Eb killed a lot of normal humans as well with that satellite so the black staff was involved.
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Offline g33k

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2020, 03:18:39 AM »
Ok, this is basically just a couple of questions. Evidently since Harry called Mother Winter by Atropos and Skuld he seems to think she is one of the Fates and one of the Norn.  Atropos had a set of shears that cut the sting of, well we'll call it life.  Are these shears the Black Staff?

Didn't Mother Winter have her scissors/shears/whatever, in the scene where Harry got the Unraveling?


... And if Mother Winter is one of the Fates, is Mother Summer one of the other ones? And if she is, who is the third Fate.  Is Mab one?
  I think @Yuillegan got this one.  Mothers Summer&Winter are both "the Crone," etc on down the line.  We saw both trios, one in each of the pair of statues in Hades' vault.


Bonus point.  Evidently one of the Fates went all murderous and got themselves a Titan.  How weird is that?

I don't see any sign (as yet, at least) that "the Last Titan" belongs to any of the Faerie Queens.

I still think she's the Fomor's "Empress," and the Fomor are the "Army she's bringing."  The Fomor's request for "Peace Talks" is kind of a re-run of Duchess Arianna showing up at the White Council with a peace-proposal that isn't...
 

Offline morriswalters

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2020, 03:31:12 AM »
This source.
Quote
Clotho played an important role in Greek myths; she forced Aphrodite to sleep with other gods; she killed the Titan Typhon

More later.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2020, 06:08:31 AM »
It's debated whether they actually killed him; they gave Typhon poisoned (ephemeral) fruit that made him weak enough for Zeus to defeat. By they I mean the Morae (Fates).

Good point G33k, Mother Winter still has her shears. More than likely the Blackstaff isn't hiding as shears.

Offline Mira

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2020, 11:24:22 AM »
Quote
Didn't Mother Winter have her scissors/shears/whatever, in the scene where Harry got the Unraveling?

Yup

Offline morriswalters

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2020, 05:50:51 PM »
When Harry summons Mother Winter in Cold Days, Mother Summer doesn't hear the summoning.  Seems kinda weird if she is half of one of the fates.

I'm not suggesting that the Last Titan is one of the Fates, it was just odd that one of the Fates had killed a Titan.

Offline g33k

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2020, 06:02:47 PM »
When Harry summons Mother Winter in Cold Days, Mother Summer doesn't hear the summoning.  Seems kinda weird if she is half of one of the fates.

They aren't equal; they aren't identical.  Atropos, Skuld -- these are Darkness figures, Death figures.  While the "Crone" is never going to be a fertility-figure, there's Ancient Wisdom, the knowledge and experience that helps one survive the darkness and the cold, the wisdom that deepens ones enjoyment of the easier times; that's Mother Summer.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2020, 06:55:20 PM »
Where are the other two Fates, Clothos and Lachesis? By using the names Atropos and Skuld he has called Mother Winter out as one of the Fates both in Norse mythology and Greek mythology. He does not summon her as the Crone, assuming that under another mantle she is part of Hecate.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2020, 09:17:06 PM »
Quote
Q: Apparently, Mother Winter is Atropos, 'cept for a cleaver instead of scissors.

Mother Summer is more likely Clotho with her duty to grant life. This leaves Lachesis

A: Right model, but you've got it misaligned by 90 degrees. :)
https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/1l514p/who_are_the_other_two_moiras/

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Are Mother Summer and Mother Winter two of three Fates?  If so what is the third?
No, they’re… read Skin Game.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: The Fates and the Norns and scissors
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2020, 09:54:47 AM »
@Bad Alias
Well that put a bullet in the head of that idea.  Here's my takeaway.  Jim's math is meaningless as metaphor.  He seems to be attempting to describe vertical versus lateral organization.  I knew they also represented Hecate.  Is there a Norse version of that goddess?  Don't answer.

@g33k
If Mother Winter isn't Atropos the question of if the shears are the Black Staff is moot.

@Yuillegan
If they aren't any of the  3 Fates then they obviously didn't kill a Titan.

Thanks all.