Author Topic: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT  (Read 19466 times)

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #105 on: April 07, 2020, 10:54:14 PM »
I do not think they feed on souls. They feed on your spiritual power, your life energy.

 Emotions...  However they can also burn the Hunger..  The Hunger feeds off of passion and lust, but true love will burn it out..  I guess if you call passion and lust, life energy, it feeds off of that, however true love, if you define that as spiritual power will burn it out..  Others feed off of fear, guess that one can be called life energy.. Now does bravery cancel it out?

Offline didymos

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #106 on: April 07, 2020, 11:01:32 PM »
Others feed off of fear, guess that one can be called life energy.. Now does bravery cancel it out?

Yes:

Quote
“You’ve said that True Love (real True Love) only protects against WCVamps feeding on lust. What protects against the other WCVamps?”
It isn’t real complicated that way. The vamps who feed on fear get bad effects from real courage. Those who feed on despair choke on hope. :)

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1371
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #107 on: April 08, 2020, 12:09:46 AM »
Well Jim's explanation is a weak one, and certainly not something that makes sense logically. It definitely isn't rooted in biology. ALL beings need energy, the primary way is feeding. The parasite/Hunger would STILL need to eat during the time between the birth of it's fleshy host and when it finally emerges during its "first" feeding. Dormant insects (and other beings for that matter) still require energy during dormancy (diapause), they have to gather things for the dormant being to sustain itself on. I mean really. The so-called first feeding isn't even the first feeding, because it starts feeding during gestation! You can see Jim is really on the back foot when asked that question, because he stumbles through it and relies on the questioners answer (a common technique when you haven't got a better answer) to their own question.

I concede it might be canon then, but it is a poorly thought out part of the world. Worse still, it doesn't properly align with the information he wrote when he wrote Blood Rites. I imagine he had different ideas about his White Court Vampires when he first wrote them, and then had to sort of patch things on when he expanded their world.

Even if the embryonic Hunger gathered all it needed to eat during the extended period of dormancy for 18 years from it's Host's mother (without somehow killing them both) it hardly explains what the hell they actually feed on. Or how.

Not to mention, are we expected to believe that a young WCV like Inari just has no sexual contact before 18? Statistically more than half of teens have had sex before 18 in the US (I am using US data because it it more relevant to Inari). Even if she herself hadn't, are we supposed to believe that the Hunger didn't rear it's head at all before that? The whole thing is just poorly done imo.

As for whether they feed off life energy, spirit, soul or emotions...I think you guys are making distinctions where you don't have to. Bob talks about it to Harry more than once. And since the literal purpose of Bob is as a talking head, and he is literally a talking head, you can safely assume that he is talking to the reader as much as Harry. All those things are tied together, which means that WCVs feed off all of them.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #108 on: April 08, 2020, 12:20:02 AM »
The Justine and Molly references were to life energy and life respectively, not soul.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1371
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #109 on: April 08, 2020, 02:08:10 AM »
As I said, you might be making a distinction where one isn't needed. They are different things, but all bound together. Eating one doesn't mean you're not getting another. Streams, oceans, puddles, rain, tears, ponds, pools, fountains and falls. All are different, all are water.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #110 on: April 08, 2020, 03:04:26 PM »
As I said, you might be making a distinction where one isn't needed. They are different things, but all bound together. Eating one doesn't mean you're not getting another. Streams, oceans, puddles, rain, tears, ponds, pools, fountains and falls. All are different, all are water.

Yes, all are water, but they are not the same and the differences do matter.  "Water, water, everywhere and not a drop to drink.."  You can float on the ocean and die of thirst..

Offline toodeep

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #111 on: April 08, 2020, 06:32:46 PM »
The whole groups in the white court thing isn't well thought out, I'd agree.  It is clear he really built it all around the sexual vampires and it really starts to fall apart when applied to the others, but it doesn't matter that much since they are largely kept offscreen.

True love protects one against the Raiths.  Supposedly because of the melding of the souls and little of theirs is there to protect you or something.  But that really falls apart when applied well.  What if you feel true love but your partner doesn't?  Why does the love protection have to come from sharing with someone (making love) when pretty obviously "true hope" and "true courage" are (I assume) solo activities?  You could argue that Harry has stood up to so many things that should kill him, even when he believed it would kill him that he must have "true courage" and thus should be protected from the Malvora (or Skavis, whichever).  Who knows, maybe he is, but the threat to him has almost always been the Raiths, so it doesn't really matter


Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #112 on: April 08, 2020, 06:57:56 PM »
The whole groups in the white court thing isn't well thought out, I'd agree.  It is clear he really built it all around the sexual vampires and it really starts to fall apart when applied to the others, but it doesn't matter that much since they are largely kept offscreen.

True love protects one against the Raiths.  Supposedly because of the melding of the souls and little of theirs is there to protect you or something.  But that really falls apart when applied well.  What if you feel true love but your partner doesn't?  Why does the love protection have to come from sharing with someone (making love) when pretty obviously "true hope" and "true courage" are (I assume) solo activities?  You could argue that Harry has stood up to so many things that should kill him, even when he believed it would kill him that he must have "true courage" and thus should be protected from the Malvora (or Skavis, whichever).  Who knows, maybe he is, but the threat to him has almost always been the Raiths, so it doesn't really matter

I remember a multi-page debate/argument over whether or not if being the victim of rape would
destroy your protection?  Supposedly Justine did away with her protection because she had lesbian sex with another girl.  None of that changed the true love she felt for Thomas, but it took away her protection.  Nor would her feelings for Thomas be any different if she had decided upon a guy instead..  So does it come down to merely being unfaithful?  Harry's true love for Susan protected him for years after she left him, but once he had hooked up with Luccio it was wiped out.  However how can it be unfaithfulness when the person has been out of the picture for years? 

Offline AClone

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #113 on: April 08, 2020, 11:11:49 PM »
The whole groups in the white court thing isn't well thought out, I'd agree.  It is clear he really built it all around the sexual vampires and it really starts to fall apart when applied to the others, but it doesn't matter that much since they are largely kept offscreen.

True love protects one against the Raiths.  Supposedly because of the melding of the souls and little of theirs is there to protect you or something.  But that really falls apart when applied well.  What if you feel true love but your partner doesn't?  Why does the love protection have to come from sharing with someone (making love) when pretty obviously "true hope" and "true courage" are (I assume) solo activities?  You could argue that Harry has stood up to so many things that should kill him, even when he believed it would kill him that he must have "true courage" and thus should be protected from the Malvora (or Skavis, whichever).  Who knows, maybe he is, but the threat to him has almost always been the Raiths, so it doesn't really matter
It doesn't "fall apart" I think you're making invalid assumptions. For one, if only one party truly loves the other, then it's not "true love". The person giving love wouldn't be protected, and the one on the receiving end wouldn't be because they aren't attuned to accept it.

And nowhere anywhere in the series (that I've seen) has there been indication that there is any protection from the other two known houses--let alone "true bravery" or "true courage". If there is, it would be up to Jim to present that mechanism. Yoou can't just assume a parallel.

Offline didymos

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #114 on: April 08, 2020, 11:23:43 PM »
And nowhere anywhere in the series (that I've seen) has there been indication that there is any protection from the other two known houses--let alone "true bravery" or "true courage". If there is, it would be up to Jim to present that mechanism. Yoou can't just assume a parallel.

No one's assuming.  Jim has stated that that is the case.

Offline AClone

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #115 on: April 08, 2020, 11:45:44 PM »
It was the three major houses: Raith, Malvora, and Skavis.  It's implied there are also some minor houses that haven't been named:

As to the number of vamps there:

We then get a number on how many are seated, and that is about a hundred:

There's some ambiguity there.  It may have been only a hundred total after all, or there may have been some vamps standing instead of sitting.  In any case, most of them were only the "leading members of the three major Houses", which would mean there were a bunch of Whites who weren't in attendance.
I think that maybe you’re looking in the wrong place. I think thank when Thomas initially tells Harry “what he can’t tell him about”, he describes it as a gathering of a hundred of the most powerful vampires of the White Court. And I’m assuming that would be politically powerful. So the number of attendees was probably the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

There is an interesting idea lurking around this conversation.  If it is the first fatal feeding that turns a white, does the infant who kills his mother during gestation come out a full fledged vampire?

And this is covered to some degree in PG at the Fool Moon Garage.
I suspect that you’re reading it wrong. If a fetus killed it’s mother by feeding, then it wouldn’t be born. I think that what is implied is that the feeding weakens the mother to the point that she doesn’t have the strength to handle the physical stress of childbirth. Making it a 50-50 proposition.

I'm further going to suggest White Court vampire who was pregnant could bolster her own reserves simply by feeding more often to strengthen herself. That seems pretty obvious to me.

I’m pretty sure that Thomas was referring to a 50-50 chance for mortals—since he was, after all, directly referring to Justine’s situation.

I agree, but if he were, she shouldn't have gotten pregnant. 
Exactly. If ya’ll don’t mind, I’m going to suggest a different tack. First I’ll point out that the naagloshii referred to Lara and her sisters as phages attached to a rotting meat sack (iirc). But he/it was speaking to them. That implies that their consciousness is the phage, and the body just happens to be along for the ride. Thomas referring to it as a “demon” is just a figure of speech, distancing himself from his inherent nature.

More importantly, I’m going to refer to the fact that Thomas states not only that they “took precautions”, but that his kind are “all but infertile”. In essence, a very low sperm count for males. I’m not going to speculate what the actual mechanism is. Nor am I going to question that Thomas and Justine took effective precautions. I'll take that at face value.

Instead, I’m going to go a different direction.

I’ll point out that throughout the series, there have been random events that have happened without explanation. The car that rear ended Harry, and all he concluded was that it was a crime of opportunity. Karrin’s car getting blown up, which he tried to attribute to the various villains of White Night, but it doesn’t quite fit. And on the flip side, times like when Marcone shows up out of nowhere with a Valkyrie—at the exact moment that Harry is destined to die.

Or, most specifically, when in Proven Guilty, after Harry has used Little Chicago for the first time to find Molly, Bob discovers that Little Chicago had been “fixed” with so that Harry’s head wouldn’t explode—then it was returned to it’s original state, with the damaged coupling. Implying that someone not only knew about Harry’s lab, about Little Chicago, but had the power, knowledge and access through Harry’s wards to fix (and unfix) it.

So I’m going to suggest here that someone, some outside force, meddled…to make sure that Justine got pregnant.

Not going to speculate as to how or why, positive or negative. But it seems to me that particular leap is a whole lot more likely for Jim’s style than… “Oops. It was an accident”.

Offline 123Chikadee

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 215
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #116 on: April 08, 2020, 11:50:35 PM »
I wonder what sort of acts would qualify for 'true bravery' or 'true hope'. Is the protection on a case by case basis or can you lose the protection by giving in to fear or despair? I can believe that an object can be imbued with courage or hope if enough people put those types of feelings into the them, the swords show that pretty well. So I bet you can do it with other things.
@AClone: Interesting. Who would have the power to do that?

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #117 on: April 09, 2020, 12:09:20 AM »
Quote
So I’m going to suggest here that someone, some outside force, meddled…to make sure that Justine got pregnant.

   Very possible, but the question is why? 

Offline didymos

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #118 on: April 09, 2020, 12:12:39 AM »
So I’m going to suggest here that someone, some outside force, meddled…to make sure that Justine got pregnant.

I can tell you who it was: some guy named Jim. :P

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #119 on: April 09, 2020, 12:18:30 AM »
Jim did it so that branch of the Dresden family could have a little Thomas or Thomisina to replace poor dead daddy and beloved brother. Changes for Thomas Raith so to speak.