Author Topic: Some curious things in Summer Knight  (Read 9226 times)

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2020, 09:56:08 PM »
I don't know if it has occured to anyone, but Merlin was a British Wizard. Why on earth would he build [Demonreach] in America (which during his time was not even necessarily known to exist)?!
It being beyond the reach of civilization may have been the point. Building such a thing in such a remote part of the world, away from all centers of, at least mortal, power makes a ton of since for me. Even over a thousand years later, it's a difficult place to get to regardless of any of the magical reasons that make it hard to get to.

It has occurred to me. It's part of my theory that the "lighthouse" on Demonreach isn't a lighthouse but is a wizard's tower. Or at least was.

Thinking of it's remoteness, and the Gatekeeper's ease of showing up there, the thought popped up that maybe his beef with Demonreach is that he was once the Warden and he released a prisoner for some reason. He stopped being Warden somehow. Demonreach holds a grudge because of the released prisoner.

It's just a thought that came to me. I don't think it's right, but figured I'd throw it out there anyway.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2020, 10:23:44 PM »
Bad Alias -
Just to be clear, Lea's nemfection was overcome with Mab's help. That is not insignificant. Her power is the one meant specifically to fight Outsiders and their magic. I suspect only Mother Winter herself would be better. We don't have any examples of anyone doing it on their own. And she did it in Winter's own wellspring at the heart of her power. More than a little help. Cat Sith's struggle always seemed more like someone realizing that they might not be alone in their own head, but it was too late, rather than one of a tireless battle from the first infection. Most virus' on your computer are far more effective running in the background where the computer and the user don't even see them. I suspect Nemesis is much the same. Which isn't to say that when they run openly they are not useful to the malicious actors behind the virus, and very terrifying at the same time, because they absolutely are. But it all depends on context and strategy.

I did wonder if Jim's original reason was to do with the weakening of the barrier so they could cross over. When he wrote Summer Knight, the universe seemed to operate by slightly different rules. Fae seemed to cast more spells using words, Harry used magical Names as well as English ones, Fae and Vampires were weaker and couldn't do certain things outside of Faerie (according to Harry), the Ladies were weaker and the Queens were stronger, and crossing between the Never-never and the real world was a lot harder and more significant. But things have been soft-retconned and changed slightly over time. Fae don't seem to say spells (rather just perform them), Harry uses mostly English words as Names, Fae and Vamps are stronger and seem to have no issue doing things outside of Faerie that Harry used to only think mortals could do, Ladies are stronger and the Queens got a little bit nerfed, and going between the Never-never and the real world seems as simple and normal for everyone as walking through a door.

What I am getting at is that it is hard to know what ideas and rules survived from the early series, and it becomes harder to base ideas and WAGs of concepts and text in the early series.

The ley line argument answers some of the problem...you can't tell me that nowhere in Britain or Europe had enough ley lines to build Demonreach etc.

Exactly, why doesn't anything happen in Van Buren eh?? Perspective is god, and hopefully we shall get further perspectives that will answer more of this.

Totally agree as to the writing reasons, it is very difficult to get a city right let alone several. But that's just part of the job as an author I think, getting your research done. It's a hard slog and no one really likes it after a while, but I think the payoff of having a broader story and expanded world is far greater and ultimately more satisfying. Harry isn't a Wizard PI in Chicago anymore - it's time to throw away the mold and let loose.

Well I am sure the local Native American's might not have been super happy with Merlin, I doubt they felt their part of the world was remote enough. Why not build it in Antartica then? Or a remote island in the Pacific? Or the middle of the desert in Africa or Australia?

I have often wondered if Demonreach moves around, or is accessible from several places. Perhaps the original site was an island in England, but has moved with the center of Western Power (i.e. the United States). Rick Riordan did something similar in his series I believe with the Greek Gods following the heart or flame of Western Civilization (Greece to Italy to Britain to America or something like that).

Or perhaps their is more than one entrance, a polar opposite on the other side of the world would make sense. Which I believe would be between the East Coast of Africa and the West Coast of Australia. The only thing there is a few tiny Islands maybe discovered by the Dutch and owned by the French -  Ile de la Nouvelle-Amsterdam and another smaller one.

Jim sort of told us why Demonreach is mad at Rashid...similar to in Cold Days how there was an attack on the Gates as well as Demonreach, I suspect there was a similar occasion where in order to relieve pressure perhaps on the Outer Gates or elsewhere, Rashid redirected the enemy to Demonreach in order to secure his own area (believing that Demonreach could weather the assault). I suspect Alfred is upset because ANYTHING that threatens the security of the inmates is antithetical to it, and so bears the grudge. OR Rashid failed to come to Demonreach's aid by putting all his resources and efforts into killing an enemy tank, forcing Alfred to bear the burden alone and almost be overwhelmed (perhaps he even briefly was).

Jim called the tactic "focusing the tank" which comes from MOBA type games, an idea to let a "tanky" character absorb the the frontal assault while the other team mates outflank the enemy etc. or put all your energies into killing an enemy tank. If I understand it correctly.

But it wouldn't surprise me if Rashid had once been the Warden, seems like his sort of thing.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 10:47:14 PM by Yuillegan »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2020, 10:36:23 PM »
There is a WOJ on the limp, supposedly Demonreach got it mixing it up with a glacier.  Not in a fight with the Gatekeeper.  Good luck finding it.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2020, 10:50:26 PM »
Yes I am familiar with it. The glacier caused the limp, which I took to mean the island of Demonreach being cut off from the mainland or something geographical in nature.

The limp had nothing to do with Demonreach's grudge against Rashid - that was Harry's mistaken assumption (the WOJ that you mentioned Morris covers that).

2009 Independence signing:
Quote
Can you tell us more about the runes on the cottage and the lighthouse?
They were not put there by Demonreach; they have been there a very long time.  They are pre-Council.  They’re a prehistoric script, actually.  Harry could have figured out the script if he’d had the comic book. NOTE: I think this has something to do with runes on a wall in Under City seen in Welcome to the Jungle

Also, people have a few things wrong about the Gatekeeper and the island.  The Gatekeeper did not hurt Demonreach.  Gatekeeper has been on the island a couple of times, and it’s never gone well, but he didn’t cause Demonreach’s limp.  That’s the work of the glacier that carved out Lake Michigan.

Unfortunately, I think that kills the idea the Rashid is a former Warden. Visiting the island a couple of times probably isn't enough if you were the Warden.

Also those runes in Welcome to the Jungle and on Demonreach...I had a theory a while back about them being related to the Hyperboreans and Atlanteans. Harry should really do some digging.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 11:07:23 PM by Yuillegan »

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2020, 12:44:51 AM »
Bad Alias -
Just to be clear, Lea's nemfection was overcome with Mab's help. That is not insignificant. ... Cat Sith's struggle always seemed more like someone realizing that they might not be alone in their own head, but it was too late, rather than one of a tireless battle from the first infection.
Agree, but I do think it shows us something about Nemesis.

I did wonder if Jim's original reason was to do with the weakening of the barrier so they could cross over. When he wrote Summer Knight, the universe seemed to operate by slightly different rules. Fae seemed to cast more spells using words, Harry used magical Names as well as English ones, Fae and Vampires were weaker and couldn't do certain things outside of Faerie (according to Harry), the Ladies were weaker and the Queens were stronger, and crossing between the Never-never and the real world was a lot harder and more significant. But things have been soft-retconned and changed slightly over time. Fae don't seem to say spells (rather just perform them), Harry uses mostly English words as Names, Fae and Vamps are stronger and seem to have no issue doing things outside of Faerie that Harry used to only think mortals could do, Ladies are stronger and the Queens got a little bit nerfed, and going between the Never-never and the real world seems as simple and normal for everyone as walking through a door.

What I am getting at is that it is hard to know what ideas and rules survived from the early series, and it becomes harder to base ideas and WAGs of concepts and text in the early series.
I really think Jim has done a very good job of retconning the early books. For example, Harry's statements of Bianca not being able to pull the heart spell off outside of the Nevernever still works because it's become clear he had underestimated vampires abilities with magic generally and things are easier in the Nevernever. Also, Harry and Morgan didn't know how someone was pulling it off until near the end of the book because it was a big deal. The claim that they're creatures of the Nevernever is a clearer example of something that seems to have just been straight retconned, but those examples are rarer than the things that can be explained by Harry learning that he was wrong. I think the opening the Ways thing is that Harry has just gotten a lot better and he's not swimming in the kiddie pool anymore. Also, he's not terrified Lea is going to be there to turn him into a dog. Basically, I don't feel like that one was even soft-retconned.

Exactly, why doesn't anything happen in Van Buren eh??
Because I picked a randomish state and then a randomish city with a population under 1,000 from a list I found on the internet?

Well I am sure the local Native American's might not have been super happy with Merlin, I doubt they felt their part of the world was remote enough. Why not build it in Antartica then? Or a remote island in the Pacific? Or the middle of the desert in Africa or Australia?
Good points. Rashid travels to the darkside of the Moon via the Nevernever, so it's not like a more remote place couldn't be reached. But maybe those places were too remote? New Wardens are going to have to be able to get there. When I brought up remoteness, I was only considering difficulty of people stumbling upon it, not damages to local populations. Maybe Merlin needed to be close to a supernaturally significant area like Chicago to pull it off(if it was indeed supernaturally significant before people got there)?

Unfortunately, I think that kills the idea the Rashid is a former Warden.
It was just a passing thought. I had forgotten about the focusing the tank quote. Thanks for reminding me. That's the fun of this board.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2020, 01:07:45 AM »
Indeed,  the question is at what point did he become infected?   It has been a while but didn't Mab assign him to assist Harry?  I seem to remember something to that effect.  Anyway Harry didn't immediately perceive that Cat Sith was infected.  The reason for that could be until he met with Titania that he then became more vigilant..  So was it that, or did Maeve or someone else infect Cat Sith mid-book?
Harry speculates about that when he fights Cat Sith.

Quote
“You see,” I said, “Cat Sith is a creature of Faerie, and he swore an oath to Queen Mab to obey her commands. She commanded him to obey mine. And I just gave you a command, kitty. Did Mab release you from her command? Did she suspend the duties of her vassal?”
             Sith snarled again, his eyes getting wider and rounder, his tail thrashing around wildly.
             “They got to you, didn’t they?” I said. “They jumped you back at the Botanic Gardens while you were covering my exit. Freaking Sharkface was watching the whole thing and he got you.”

They just changed Cat Sith mind a bit so his aggression was no longer bound by the oath he gave to Mab. That is much like mind magic. When that was not enough they switched to more direct possession. Much of how Nemesis can work was shown in that confrontation.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2020, 04:24:02 AM »
Funny thing about the lighthouse.  If it had been there when the glaciers came through and carved out the Great Lakes it makes you wonder how he lighthouse could have survived?  There would have been a one mile  thick, minimum, sheet of ice grinding away.  The stones on that lighthouse must be super stones and God only knows about the mortar.

The older I get the less I trust what Jim says.  I'm minded of Obi Wan speaking to Luke when he says, "What I told you was the truth, in a way...." or whatever the precise quote is.

Vadderung suggests in Cold Days that one of the reasons that the prison was put where it was, was because of the water surrounding the island, which would not have been there until after the retreat of the ice.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2020, 05:14:57 AM »
Alfred Demonreach has been there forever* and was injured by the glacier or simply reflects the carving of the earth by the ice of the glaciers. Alfred Demonreach was not created by Merlin. Demonreach the Prison was, and we only know that Merlin created it in "five times at once" or whatever the proper quote was. We don't know when the first time was. I suspect it was after the island was an island.

Or at least that's my understanding of the history of the island. I'm not sure if my understanding has been challenged enough to be cemented.

@Yuillegan: Alfred Demonreach could be another reason the Prison was built on Demonreach.

*By forever I just mean a sufficiently long enough time that we can ignore his "birth" for the sake of this conversation.

Offline g33k

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2020, 08:40:36 AM »
Harry speculates about that when he fights Cat Sith ...

Harry first worries about it back at Molly's apartment, when he calls for Sith and Sith unexpectedly doesn't respond.  He gets extra-annoying, "Here, kitty-kitty-kitty..." and Sarissa almost panics.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2020, 01:32:15 AM »
Harry first worries about it back at Molly's apartment, when he calls for Sith and Sith unexpectedly doesn't respond.  He gets extra-annoying, "Here, kitty-kitty-kitty..." and Sarissa almost panics.

Which is right after the meeting at the Botanic Gardens...which is how he deduces that Cat Sith got jumped right after.

BA -
Not sure that Demonreach was there before Merlin built the Prison. He says he is the bars, the gates, the walls etc. I think he is a creation of the Prison. He is ancient because the Prison was also created in prehistoric times, whenever Merlin's earliest point in time was that he created the Prison.

It's curious that the glacier caused a limp, because I have always assumed the Prison was built so early that the island was once part of the main land and the glacier was responsible for making it an island. However, as Morris points out, Vadderung says the Prison was built specifically there because one of the reasons was that the island was surrounded by water. So which is it?

The Cat Sith infection does show plenty about Nemesis, but only some symptoms. Nowhere near enough to make any sort of reliable conclusions.

I agree - Jim has done quite well at subtly retconning a lot of the early stuff by being both clever and vague. When I was talking about passing in and out of the Nevernever, I meant for supernatural creatures. They used to have a much harder time coming across, I even think it is in one book where they say it is much easier to open a door from this side, than from the Nevernever. Which has mostly been retconned.

I was just being facetious about Van Buren, wasn't meant to be taken literally. :)

Yeah I suspect the Moon was unviable for a number of reasons lol. In general it had to be accessible enough for the Warden, and I daresay it had to be on Earth literally. Something to do with Genius Loci I imagine, among other things. I guess I think there were places more remote without being on the other side of the world that Merlin could have chosen. He didn't for whatever reason, I hope we find out why. Maybe Merlin is Harry. That would make most sense to me.

Indeed, some of the best fun of this board is how much everyone has tucked away. You constantly are reminding me of details I forget as well, as do many others. Together we have Dresden Files Intellectus!

Morris - I agree. Jim is getting shifty. Or perhaps I am noticing more. Either way, gotta take a fair bit of what he says with a grain of salt. But that doesn't mean he is completely unreliable either. Just enough to make us paranoid  :o

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2020, 02:57:46 AM »
This has got me somewhat curious about what we actually know about Alfred, the Island, and the Prison. They're a little trinitarian in that they're all one, and they're all distinct. I don't think we know the order they came about. I mean, we've inferred opposite conclusions about whether Alfred or the Prison came first. We both have good reasons.

Nowhere near enough to make any sort of reliable conclusions.
Umm. . . You do realize where you're posting, right?  ;)

I even think it is in one book where they say it is much easier to open a door from this side, than from the Nevernever. Which has mostly been retconned.

I was just being facetious about Van Buren, wasn't meant to be taken literally. :)
Proven Guilty talks about it. I think if we went through and analyzed it, I think you might be surprised.

But responding strengthened my argument.  :)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2020, 04:47:33 AM »
Indeed. A very odd Trinity. Many mysteries to be solved. I kind of wish more of the time between Cold Days and Skin Game had been shown. It would be enlightening to know more about how the islands defenses work etc. Just goes to show perspective is everything and we all see things a bit differently. Hopefully Jim clears it up!

Yeah, on this forum anything goes. I might have been unwise to push for sound theories.  :P

Perhaps so, would make a good activity. I might even do it just for fun! In all the free time I don't have. I think by now even PG is considered early.

I thought we were on the same page now? We both think he has done a good job retconning stuff? I never thought Harry had a major issue crossing in and out of the Nevernever (although he often says it is really hard). Just that the supernatural have a hard time crossing to here...but maybe I am over thinking that. 


Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2020, 04:56:40 AM »
Clarification: Responding to the Van Buren comment strengthened my argument as to why it makes sense that so much happens in Chicago. Or at least that's the "joke."

I like the idea that things happen in Chicago because things are drawn there, and that's how Harry ended up there. He isn't immune to the draws, mystical and otherwise. There's a reason nearly 3 million people live there.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2020, 08:39:04 AM »
Aha! I get you now. Bloody written medium making it harder to communicate.

It isn't a bad theory, but I just feel it needs more work. Jim will figure it out I am sure.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Some curious things in Summer Knight
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2020, 07:55:25 PM »
Good observations overall, but I think based on SF/CD/SG especially, you're underselling just how important an agent with Free Will is for the Courts. In essence the Courts are finely balanced to a T, and the Knights can do whatever they like and tilt those balances. Plus, they're the actor who can truly bring in outside power and add it to the Courts (all the other Fae have to strike bargains which obviously bring in a trickle of benefits).

Except they're not actually balanced. The entirety of summer is balanced with the fraction of winter that isn't on guard duty.

Which kind of messes up the point of SK. Like, OK, let's say Aurora succeeds in unbalancing the courts by transferring some of summer's power to winter. Can't Mab just redeploy an equivalent measure of winter's forces to gate duty, and make things that little bit harder for the outsiders?