Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[morriswalters]

Knowing what Susan was, Harry's moral responsibility was to bring her all the way in to the magical world.  Anybody  with a lick of sense would expect their lover, who was a reporter, to do exactly what Susan did.  I mean Lois Lane, need I elaborate?  My father had a crude saying to cover it, I'll paraphrase. Never get laid where you get your paycheck.

If he had done that, then when told her that Vampires will eat you, he  may have some reasonable morale defense to the claim that he(Harry) was free of responsibility for the outcome.

[Mira]

Knowing what Susan was, Harry's moral responsibility was to bring her all the way in to the magical world.  Anybody  with a lick of sense would expect their lover, who was a reporter, to do exactly what Susan did.  I mean Lois Lane, need I elaborate?  My father had a crude saying to cover it, I'll paraphrase. Never get laid where you get your paycheck.

If he had done that, then when told her that Vampires will eat you, he  may have some reasonable morale defense to the claim that he(Harry) was free of responsibility for the outcome.

  I'd agree, except for a couple of things.  Susan had been exposed to frog demons, werewolves, and Loops, she'd seen Harry do rather fantasic stuff,  she cashed in on all of that.  So what part of her anatomy was she keeping her head when it comes to not knowing the magical world can be be very dangerous?  I submit that it wasn't about how much knowledge she had or didn't have, hell, Harry could have given her a whole seminar on the subject and it wouldn't have stopped her from going to the party.  It was about the story, publishing it, making her reputation in the news world.  There are things that Harry wouldn't tell her because there were rules against it, but she was like a greedy kid, more she was fed the more she wanted..  There is also very little one can do with people who chose to be willfully ignorant when they have been warned. 

The huge mistake Harry made in my opinion was to continue to date her after it became clear she was using him to further her career.  If he had, she might be alive today, but then again she would have continued to probe, and when you play with fire you are going to get burnt.

[Bad Alias]

Back to Kincaid and what this story means. Ivy knows, to a fair degree of statistical certainty, what's going to happen when she acts. She cares for Kincaid. Kincaid is a bad person with a Darkness in him. We see that when Harry soulgazes him. Kincaid loves Ivy and is in denial. His denial of lofty principles leads him to take the job on Dresden.

Did Ivy fire Kincaid for his own good? Will facing consequences for his lack of principal be beneficial to him? I imagine Kincaid usually doesn't face moral consequences. He just deals with the practical. Ivy is one of the most powerful characters in the books. She likely often acts, unseen, by nudging things this way or that way. And for the inevitable objection from people not paying attention, her neutrality is a lie. She is not neutral.

[Mira]

Back to Kincaid and what this story means. Ivy knows, to a fair degree of statistical certainty, what's going to happen when she acts. She cares for Kincaid. Kincaid is a bad person with a Darkness in him. We see that when Harry soulgazes him. Kincaid loves Ivy and is in denial. His denial of lofty principles leads him to take the job on Dresden.

Did Ivy fire Kincaid for his own good? Will facing consequences for his lack of principal be beneficial to him? I imagine Kincaid usually doesn't face moral consequences. He just deals with the practical. Ivy is one of the most powerful characters in the books. She likely often acts, unseen, by nudging things this way or that way. And for the inevitable objection from people not paying attention, her neutrality is a lie. She is not neutral.

   I think Ivy doesn't love Kincaid like the father she never had, she also loves Harry as uncle, big brother...  The Archive on the other hand isn't sentimental,  the Archive also knows that emotions like love have driven it's hosts mad in the past, so to protect Ivy's sanity, Kincaid had to go.  I also think that the Archive also knows what is about to go down, that somehow has had contact with both Uriel and Mab, hence the orders to go for the heart instead of the more sure kill shot, the head.. It was all planned out, that is why Mab just happened to be in the icy water to receive the body, and why Harry's body just happened to fall into the icy water in the first place, it all amounts to pre-planning..

[Bad Alias]

For those who are interested, here's the last time we did the "is Harry to blame" dance. https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53127.0.html.

[Dina]

Oh, I see. Quite long. (I did not participate in that one)

[Bad Alias]

Yeah, but half of it has nothing to do with the question, as usual for long threads.

An interesting point is we spent a lot of time on Kirby's death.

[Dina]

Ooh, poor Kirby. I won't say more because I don't want to lit the fire of a new discussion here 

[morriswalters]

 

[Bad Alias]

lol.

[Mira]

 

Ooh, poor Kirby. I won't say more because I don't want to lit the fire of a new discussion here 

[g33k]

What's the finish line with the Doom of Damocles? Is it when the apprentice becomes a full wizard?
...
What has Harry agreed to and what level of responsibility comes with that? For example, if Harry agrees to teach Kim enough to control her powers so she doesn't accidentally cause harm, what is he responsible for? Would it be a different level of responsibility than if he agreed to teach her some stuff about magic?

Depends... Harry was under the Doom until the Council lifted it.  He had been considered a full wizard (albeit a disreputable, kitty-literbox'es-his-dress-robes sort of full wizard).

Then he went back under the Doom, effectively, when Molly did (if she had gone Warlock, he'd have been subject to being executed alongside her).  She's got to be out from under, as the new Winter Lady, so he is too.

I suspect that if Molly had gone warlock, Harry could have escaped execution  by turning her in (with the recommendation to kill, instead of clemency); or maybe if he killed her himself.

I presume Eb was under the Doom, too, while Harry was (and, egads, can you just imagine the consternation amonst the Wardens if they had been told their target was McCoy the Blackstaff??!?); that sharing the Doom is part of rehabilitating the proto-warlock.

I recall (but cannot cite, sorry) that Eb could have escaped the Doom by just killing Harry outright:  "He was just too far gone, I tried but I couldn't fix him."  That's why/how I think Harry could have gotten out if Molly had gone bad.

BUT...

... What has Harry agreed to and what level of responsibility comes with that? For example, if Harry agrees to teach Kim enough to control her powers so she doesn't accidentally cause harm, what is he responsible for? Would it be a different level of responsibility than if he agreed to teach her some stuff about magic?

I don't think the sword of Damocles applies to the Kim situation...

Agreed -- Kim wasn't under the Doom (so neither was Harry) but simply because Kim wasn't a White Council wizard (she was too weak a talent for the WC).  The "Doom" is a privilege, so to speak.  Minor sorcerors &c just get killed for warlock'ery.  Harry would have been obligated to kill her (or report her up the chain) if he'd been greycloaking then, but before the cloak he was an "ordinary" WC member, and (afaik) under no special obligations (other than NOT to aid/assist with warlock'ery).

[morriswalters]

You took my metaphor and broke it.

[Bad Alias]

I recall (but cannot cite, sorry) that Eb could have escaped the Doom by just killing Harry outright:  "He was just too far gone, I tried but I couldn't fix him."

He said he had orders to kill Harry if he showed the least bit disobedience or some such thing. I'm fairly certain it was in Blood Rites in the chapter in which he's revealed as the Blackstaff, or more precisely, the chapter in which what the Blackstaff is.

But the point is I was responding to Morris's comment that the Doom is simply a metaphor for the responsibility one has when they accept a student. I was just asking what's the scope of that responsibility.

I don't think Harry could escape responsibility by killing Molly. That's only partially because Harry didn't have any such orders, but mostly because it's never ever brought up. I don't think the Doom was applied to Eb. Not once does Harry even hint that Eb was under the Doom. I'm uncertain if a wizard could take responsibility for a warlock who wasn't a wizard level talent.

[g33k]

You took my metaphor and broke it.

uhhh...

I'm sorry?