Author Topic: Margaret and The Circle  (Read 337 times)

Offline davidrcoop

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Margaret and The Circle
« on: February 28, 2020, 07:07:28 PM »
Just listening to Blood Rotes again. Thomas discussing how his mother was on the run after being involved in some bad business. Harry and Thomas have a brief chat of who?!, courts, council...

What’s the chance it was The Circle?! Would tie in with the competent, connected witch dropping out of magical life because these people are scary.

Also probably more important - are we accepting The Circle and The Black Council as the same thing?? Or is the Black Council the ‘wizard’ arm of The Circle.

Offline Mira

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2020, 11:31:23 PM »
Just listening to Blood Rotes again. Thomas discussing how his mother was on the run after being involved in some bad business. Harry and Thomas have a brief chat of who?!, courts, council...

What’s the chance it was The Circle?! Would tie in with the competent, connected witch dropping out of magical life because these people are scary.

Also probably more important - are we accepting The Circle and The Black Council as the same thing?? Or is the Black Council the ‘wizard’ arm of The Circle.

  I believe it has been established that The Circle and the Black Council are the same thing.  The Black Council is the name Harry came up for them, but I believe The Circle is what they call themselves.  I think we learned that in White Night from Cowl, but don't hold me to it.

Offline g33k

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2020, 08:40:34 AM »
I believe it has been established that The Circle and the Black Council are the same thing.  The Black Council is the name Harry came up for them, but I believe The Circle is what they call themselves.  I think we learned that in White Night from Cowl, but don't hold me to it.

I think we only assume so, at this point; and you know what Harry likes to say about you and me...

I've seen a cogent argument that "the Circle" doesn't even exist -- that it's a figment fed to the credulous by Cowl.

Nothing has explicitly linked Peabody to any other operator; since he was competent enough to work undetected for so long, he could credibly be competent enough to be a "lone wolf," resentfully turned to black magic to become "the power behind the throne" since he was so despised (sometimes cordially) by the powers-that-be ON the throne.

Thorned Namshiel is only assumed to be the source of the Hellfire at Arctis Tor (though Mab semi-confirms it, by not denying it; but... FAERIES, god dammit...).

Furthermore, T.N. (or whoever was (or were, there may not have been just one Denarian; or any Denarian(s) -- Harry had Hellfire; maybe some other mortal wizard brought Hellfire to Arctis Tor) there) is only assumed to be collaborating with a larger Circle or Black Council.

The Hexenwulf belts, the overpowered stuff given to Sells & Kravos...

It's really all circumstantial.

One of the things we've heard repeatedly is that the Outsiders all work together, to their own singular agenda.  That kind of distributed-but-unified operation looks an awful lot like Harry's theoretical "Black Council..." might in fact be the only organized Black Council there is.

Offline Mira

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2020, 12:40:40 PM »
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I think we only assume so, at this point; and you know what Harry likes to say about you and me...

   Now while there might be more than one,  we know that when Harry began to realize that something was going on, he began to call it "the Black Council," because it wasn't the White Council.  I believe that is what he told Eb when he was asked about it.  In other words he made the name up because it was easier to call them that rather than the enemy or the bad guys or whatever.  The Circle is a name that came from Cowl I believe, most likely not made up.  But  as you say till we know more, there might be more, then again they might be the same.  Harry's mistake might be that he is lumping them all together thus for him the Black Council and the Circle for the moment is interchangeable.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2020, 03:37:22 PM »
Thorned Namshiel is only assumed to be the source of the Hellfire at Arctis Tor (though Mab semi-confirms it, by not denying it; but... FAERIES, god dammit...).
Furthermore, T.N. (or whoever was (or were, there may not have been just one Denarian; or any Denarian(s) -- Harry had Hellfire; maybe some other mortal wizard brought Hellfire to Arctis Tor) there) is only assumed to be collaborating with a larger Circle or Black Council.

The suspect pool isn't that wide. Hellfire is limited to either full Denarians or those carrying a shadow, and spell-slingers are a minority among the thirty. Anduriel, Deirdre's partner, Magog, Ursiel and the cannon fodder from Small Favor don't seem to go for hellfire-powered offensive magic.

It wasn't Harry & Lash. It could pretty readily have been Namshiel, Tessa, Rosanna, or any combination of the three. Otherwise, there's an outside chance of Saluriel or a an unknown caster among the Church's unnamed prisoners having escaped and bonded with a host suitable for using hellfire. But that's pretty much the suspect pool.

Offline Mira

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2020, 05:24:47 PM »
The suspect pool isn't that wide. Hellfire is limited to either full Denarians or those carrying a shadow, and spell-slingers are a minority among the thirty. Anduriel, Deirdre's partner, Magog, Ursiel and the cannon fodder from Small Favor don't seem to go for hellfire-powered offensive magic.

It wasn't Harry & Lash. It could pretty readily have been Namshiel, Tessa, Rosanna, or any combination of the three. Otherwise, there's an outside chance of Saluriel or a an unknown caster among the Church's unnamed prisoners having escaped and bonded with a host suitable for using hellfire. But that's pretty much the suspect pool.

Yeah,  I think Hell Fire was limited to the wizard Namshiel,  I really don't remember anyone else slinging it, but my brain isn't working very well today..

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2020, 06:01:08 PM »
Harry coined the term Black Council because there was something shady going on that required mortal magic (summoning Outsiders).

I think it is at least useful to use the terms Black Council, the Circle, and Nemesis as three separate things until we know they aren't. The Black Council would be a conspiracy of dark wizards. The Circle would be a conspiracy of various supernatural entities/players. And Nemesis would be Nemesis. If they are all things, then I'd be pretty sure there is overlap. Using the terms interchangeably can only breed confusion.

Peabody is at least suggested to be linked to someone else in Turn Coat. Two unidentified people show up on Demonreach.

I'd say Cowl's statement about the Circle is direct, not circumstantial, evidence of a conspiracy.

Any angel, Denarian or otherwise, can use Hellfire. (Jim has intimated that only fallen angels would).

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2020, 06:52:10 PM »
Yeah,  I think Hell Fire was limited to the wizard Namshiel,  I really don't remember anyone else slinging it, but my brain isn't working very well today..

I'm not actually sure whether Tessa and Rosanna were actually seen to use it on page. Rosanna did some fire magic, but I forget whether it was boosted with hellfire or not. I don't think Tessa showed any, but she was pulling her punches at the Shedd - it's almost certain she's capable of it when she's going all out.

Offline didymos

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2020, 07:20:47 PM »
I'm not actually sure whether Tessa and Rosanna were actually seen to use it on page. Rosanna did some fire magic, but I forget whether it was boosted with hellfire or not.

It was when she used it on Demonreach:

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Rosanna howled, and called fire—specifically Hellfire—into her spread hands, while Thorned Namshiel lifted his hand into the air and gathered flickers of green lightning between his fingertips.

Butcher, Jim. Small Favor (The Dresden Files, Book 10) (p. 354). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

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I don't think Tessa showed any, but she was pulling her punches at the Shedd - it's almost certain she's capable of it when she's going all out.

I can't find anything about her using it. I agree she can though.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2020, 07:24:30 PM by didymos »

Offline g33k

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2020, 03:54:35 AM »
... Hellfire is limited to either full Denarians or those carrying a shadow ...

I'm not sure of that; not sure at all ...

Traditionally, "Hell" is in the business of winning/buying souls for the "other side," and one of their traditional gambits/coins is power.  Teaching little warlocks how to summon Hellfire (without needing a coin) looks like an awfully good deal for Team Hell.

I grant that we haven't (yet) seen ordinary-warlock / non-Denarian use of Hellfire, but I don't see any a priori / theoretical Dresdenverse limit that rules it out.

I'd love a WoJ that would clarify the point!
 

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2020, 05:53:17 AM »
Uriel's gift of Soulfire to Harry and Hellfire and Soulfire being the two sides of the same coin at least hints that a mortal wizard good be gifted Hellfire.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2020, 07:48:44 PM »
Uriel's gift of Soulfire to Harry and Hellfire and Soulfire being the two sides of the same coin at least hints that a mortal wizard good be gifted Hellfire.

I suppose that might be possible. There's the matter of power sources, though. With the Denarians, the Fallen is supplying the power. If they were to empower random humans, they're going to have to either sponsor the energy requirements in hellfire for each spell - in which case Heaven gets a reciprocal move to each spell, rather than just one marker for initially enabling the human's access - or the human has to be twisted enough to generate Hellfire by burning their own soul.

Either way, I think they'd need a more compelling business case why it's worth handing heaven the opportunity for balancing action(s) than buying the souls of punk warlocks and sorcerors. Anyone deep enough into black magic to want to sell their soul for access to hellfire is headed downstairs anyway, so unless there's an apparent likelihood they're going to manage a Margaret-esque redemption arc, it's cheaper to just wait for their natural damnation. And even if a human is particularly interesting, the pitch for Denarian recruitment sounds a lot better than openly trading for their soul.

So while I guess I wouldn't rule out the possibility, it's probably a rare enough scenario that I'd still bet on a Denarian being behind the AT attack over a human.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Margaret and The Circle
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2020, 08:05:38 PM »
Totally agree that it's extremely unlikely that it wasn't a denarian at Arctis Tor. I would like to say that gifting of the power isn't necessarily for the benefit of the recipient. To quote Bob's final words on the subject of Uriel's interests in Harry in Small Favor "[y]ou just know that can't be good!" If heaven or hell is that interested in you, it's probably not just for your own soul.