Author Topic: Peace talks excerpt indications  (Read 3719 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2020, 02:00:52 PM »
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As to your second point, it could also be argued that without Eb's specific code, Harry would have been living a much easier life, and not endangering himself at all. Harry's code is part of the reason he doesn't fit into the hero's journey. He only refuses the call when it's a, in his opinion, bad guy who makes the call to adventure. If he didn't have that ethos, he wouldn't be risking his life left and right. He also wouldn't be putting himself in situations that lead to temptation.

Whether or not without Eb's code Harry would be living an easier life is beside the point.  Mentors
teach a way to live one's life or how to do something specific, the object of the mentoring isn't to make life easier, example being Yoda's teaching about the Force to Luke, Obi-Wan's also, their object wasn't to make life easier for Luke they were teaching him how to do it without going to the darkside.

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Eb's code isn't Eb. It's a part of Harry's character by the time we meet him. Harry's time with Eb is part of Harry's "Ordinary World."

It doesn't matter, were it not for Eb's mentoring, Harry wouldn't be the character we know.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2020, 02:17:47 PM »
Whether or not without Eb's code Harry would be living an easier life is beside the point.  Mentors
teach a way to live one's life or how to do something specific, the object of the mentoring isn't to make life easier, example being Yoda's teaching about the Force to Luke, Obi-Wan's also, their object wasn't to make life easier for Luke they were teaching him how to do it without going to the darkside.

It doesn't matter, were it not for Eb's mentoring, Harry wouldn't be the character we know.
This all just makes Eb 'a' mentor. Someone who taught Harry things. But that doesn't make him THE mentor of a hero's journey who needs to die (or be disabled) to progress the story.

Harry has, if anything, already been promoted past Eb; The Warden and The Winterknight both don't answer to the Senior Council officially. Rashid may be considered a clearer sort of authority over Harry, as the Gatekeeper role is somewhat ahead of the Knight in Faery meaning (even if it's not so clear in Winter) and of course he's still the boss of Harry-the-Wizard.
But Eb? The last time Eb gave Harry advice/an order, Harry flaunted it and blew up the Red Court. And signed up with Winter instead.

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2020, 07:19:19 PM »
Whether or not without Eb's code Harry would be living an easier life is beside the point.  Mentors
teach a way to live one's life or how to do something specific, the object of the mentoring isn't to make life easier.
Your point was that Eb's code has kept Harry alive. I'm saying that Eb's code has done more to endanger him than to keep him alive. So that Harry's life would be easier without Eb's code is entirely the point.

It doesn't matter, were it not for Eb's mentoring, Harry wouldn't be the character we know.
It does matter as to the point you are arguing with. That point is whether or not Eb is the Mentor in a hero's journey structural way. If he isn't, the argument that the Mentor must die, Eb is the mentor, so Eb must die doesn't hold water. And that's putting aside that the premise "the Mentor must die" is false.

This all just makes Eb 'a' mentor. Someone who taught Harry things. But that doesn't make him THE mentor of a hero's journey.
Exactly.
THE mentor of a hero's journey who needs to die (or be disabled) to progress the story.
For the record, since my original point is that a hero's journey analysis of DF doesn't in any way point to Eb dying, the mentor dying (or being disabled) isn't part of the hero's journey.

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2020, 07:51:32 PM »
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It does matter as to the point you are arguing with. That point is whether or not Eb is the Mentor in a hero's journey structural way. If he isn't, the argument that the Mentor must die, Eb is the mentor, so Eb must die doesn't hold water. And that's putting aside that the premise "the Mentor must die" is false.
Huh?   You seem to be contradicting yourself..  Harry has had many mentors, several are still alive, Eb and I believe Rashid as well..  A couple are dead,  Justin  and I think you can count Shiro in as a mentor as well though briefly, but his impact was great.

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #94 on: February 16, 2020, 10:40:38 PM »
Merriam Webster's mentor and the hero's journey's mentor are two completely different things. Mentor is generally defined as "an experienced and trusted person who gives another person advice and help, esp. related to work or school, over a period of time." When speaking in the context of the hero's journey, the mentor refers to whatever the hero needs to change his mind after he has refused the call to adventure and go forth and succeed. In this context, the mentor can be a character trait, an object, a person, or literally anything else.

People often assume that the mentor in this context is a person who has to die so the hero can't rely on the person for help and must go forth on his adventure. This is a misunderstanding of both the hero's journey and what is meant by the mentor. For example, in Star Wars Luke refuses the call by telling Obi-Wan that he can't leave the farm. The Empire murders his family. Luke then decides to take up the call to adventure. Here the murder of Luke's family is the mentor, not Obi-Wan.

Many on the forum argue that Eb is Harry's mentor, so he must die in keeping with the structure of the hero's journey. This is wrong for two reasons. First Eb isn't a mentor in the hero's journey sense. Eb has never shown up to Harry and caused Harry to take up the call to adventure after Harry has refused it. This means that Eb is not Harry's mentor in the hero's journey sense. Second, the death of the mentor isn't a step in the hero's journey. Let's go back to Star Wars. What would the death of the mentor even mean? That Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen come back to life? That's preposterous.

Because Eb isn't a mentor and the mentor doesn't have to die, the argument that (premise 1): Eb is the mentor, (premise 2): the mentor has to die, so (conclusion): Eb will die, is wrong. Both premises are false. The conclusion cannot be reached because of the premises. The conclusion may be true for completely different reasons, but not because of the mentor/hero's journey argument.

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #95 on: February 18, 2020, 02:21:52 PM »
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Many on the forum argue that Eb is Harry's mentor, so he must die in keeping with the structure of the hero's journey. This is wrong for two reasons. First Eb isn't a mentor in the hero's journey sense. Eb has never shown up to Harry and caused Harry to take up the call to adventure after Harry has refused it. This means that Eb is not Harry's mentor in the hero's journey sense. Second, the death of the mentor isn't a step in the hero's journey. Let's go back to Star Wars. What would the death of the mentor even mean? That Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen come back to life? That's preposterous.

 That isn't exactly true..  In Turn Coat after Harry is released from the infirmary Eb walks with or escorts Harry back to Chicago from Scotland.  It is Eb that prods Harry, it is Eb who hints at the organization of the Grey Council, this is when Harry seems to be pulling back because he thinks he is alone. 

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #96 on: February 18, 2020, 04:52:48 PM »
I'd say that, and just about everything in the concluding chapter, would be the "Return with the Elixir" stage of the hero's journey.

Though thinking about Eb as a mentor, he would probably qualify in Proven Guilty when he convinces Harry to figure out what's going on in the Faerie Courts.

But this doesn't really help the argument that as a mentor, Eb has to die because many characters act as a mentor at some point. I'm sure we could fit Michael, Lea, Thomas, Maggie (Sr.), Malcolm, Rashid, Eb, Bob, Odin/Vadderung/Kringle, and Mab in there. We can probably make decent arguments for Uriel, Murphy, Butters, Murphy's dad, Mort, Sir Stuart, Carmichael, Billy, Luccio, Molly, and probably some others I haven't thought of. I don't think they are all going to die just so Harry's "hero's journey" can progress.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #97 on: February 18, 2020, 05:42:56 PM »
Merriam Webster's mentor and the hero's journey's mentor are two completely different things. Mentor is generally defined as "an experienced and trusted person who gives another person advice and help, esp. related to work or school, over a period of time." When speaking in the context of the hero's journey, the mentor refers to whatever the hero needs to change his mind after he has refused the call to adventure and go forth and succeed. In this context, the mentor can be a character trait, an object, a person, or literally anything else.

People often assume that the mentor in this context is a person who has to die so the hero can't rely on the person for help and must go forth on his adventure. This is a misunderstanding of both the hero's journey and what is meant by the mentor. For example, in Star Wars Luke refuses the call by telling Obi-Wan that he can't leave the farm. The Empire murders his family. Luke then decides to take up the call to adventure. Here the murder of Luke's family is the mentor, not Obi-Wan.

Many on the forum argue that Eb is Harry's mentor, so he must die in keeping with the structure of the hero's journey. This is wrong for two reasons. First Eb isn't a mentor in the hero's journey sense. Eb has never shown up to Harry and caused Harry to take up the call to adventure after Harry has refused it. This means that Eb is not Harry's mentor in the hero's journey sense. Second, the death of the mentor isn't a step in the hero's journey. Let's go back to Star Wars. What would the death of the mentor even mean? That Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen come back to life? That's preposterous.

Because Eb isn't a mentor and the mentor doesn't have to die, the argument that (premise 1): Eb is the mentor, (premise 2): the mentor has to die, so (conclusion): Eb will die, is wrong. Both premises are false. The conclusion cannot be reached because of the premises. The conclusion may be true for completely different reasons, but not because of the mentor/hero's journey argument.

I looked it up, and your variant of the Mentor is not the same as the wikipedia (I know) page makes of it.

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Once the hero has committed to the quest, consciously or unconsciously, his guide and magical helper appears or becomes known. More often than not, this supernatural mentor will present the hero with one or more talismans or artifacts that will aid him later in his quest. Meeting the person that can help them in their journey.

Some further storytelling goes on to explain the Mentor represents the forces of 'destiny' in the positive sense; not only is the hero supposed to save the world, the world (through the mentor) also helps the hero along. And in that sense, the mentor MUST be removed from the story, because if evil is directly up against destiny, what use is there for a separate hero? The mentor can only support the hero, and this can be because the mentor is not quite that special, or dies, or is crippled... or just vanishes (e.g. Gandalf in the Hobbit).

In that sense, of how is Harry's destiny supporting him yet not getting in the way of him being the hero of the story... Bob actually seems a much more logical mentor.

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #98 on: February 18, 2020, 06:10:06 PM »


Given the above, Shiro would be a main mentor, he is the one who made Harry custodian of his Holy Sword as he was dying.  Being custodian of the Swords has been a major factor in Harry's life.

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #99 on: February 19, 2020, 02:34:37 AM »
From the wikipedia article:
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Scholars have questioned the validity or usefulness of the monomyth category. ...
Others have found the categories Campbell works with so vague as to be meaningless...
In a similar vein, American philosopher John Shelton Lawrence and American religious scholar Robert Jewett have discussed an "American Monomyth" ... . They present this as an American reaction to the Campbellian monomyth. The "American Monomyth" storyline is: A community in a harmonious paradise is threatened by evil; normal institutions fail to contend with this threat; a selfless superhero emerges to renounce temptations and carry out the redemptive task; aided by fate, his decisive victory restores the community to its paradisiacal condition; the superhero then recedes into obscurity.
I agree with the first two sentences and think that the second part sounds more like what's going on in the Dresden Files than the hero's journey, but, not having looked into it, I imagine it is also a formula that an author can easily diverge from.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #100 on: February 20, 2020, 09:14:58 AM »
I almost wish I had never mentioned the Hero's Journey; fascinating as the discussion following that has been, because that discussion sidesteps a very real reason why many readers could expect Ebenezer to be killed of a some point in the story. 

Ever since Summer Knight; when we were first were first introduced to Eb, Harry's grandfather has acted as Harry's ally and protector on the White Council.  The person who could keep the Merlin from ramming a death sentence down Harry's throat.  The person who would warn Harry that the Merlin would have a back-up plan and come at Harry sideways.  In Death Masks, Eb told Harry the White Council would prevent the duel between Ortega and Harry from taking place.  Does anyone doubt Eb was the person who pushed the White Council to take that stance?  It was Ebenezer, and Eb's allies on the Senior Council, that Harry was counting on to save Molly from a death sentence in Proven Guilty.

Now Jim has stated more than once, that now Harry is the Winter Knight, no one on the White Council wants to risk pissing off Mab by killing her mortal champion.  So Harry doesn't need Eb's pull on the Council as an insurance policy any longer.  However, by itself this doesn't make Ebenezer superfluous for the rest of Harry's story, but it does make Eb vulnerable; or to put it another way, it removes Eb's plot armor.  I'm not predicting that Ebenezer will die in Peace Talks.  Even if Jim has decided that he will kill off Eb at some point, it doesn't have to be done in the near term.  I was thinking that one possibility is that at some point Harry gets out of being the Winter Knight.  It's just a gut feeling, but I don't see Harry remaining the Winter Knight for eight more novels.  (Five, including PT to get to twenty case novels, followed by a big trilogy.)  So Harry survives leaving his Winter Knight gig, but he still has Ebenzer as an ally on the Senior Council.  Then suddenly something bad happens and Harry no longer has Ebenezer as an insurance policy.  Remember in Turn Coat the Gatekeeper mentioned something about Harry's time to take a stand against the Council was not yet at hand?  I figure the best time for this to take place is when Ebenezer is no longer around.  This way there's no one in higher authority who can intervene in Harry's behalf.  It would ratchet up the tension by making the situation an all or nothing scenario.

Than again, as I stated in my earlier post, Ebenezer doesn't die, but something happens that diminishes him in some way.  It would have to have the same effect of isolating Harry without killing the old man off.       

 
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Offline Mira

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #101 on: February 20, 2020, 02:52:38 PM »
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Than again, as I stated in my earlier post, Ebenezer doesn't die, but something happens that diminishes him in some way.  It would have to have the same effect of isolating Harry without killing the old man off.       

If Harry gets out of the Winter Knight's gig I can see him becoming the Blackstaff, something that would go against his grain even more than being Winter Knight.  However I don't see him getting out of it, I think it is too important in the fight ahead, now the role itself may change but since both Courts are going to be in the fight, I see Harry remaining Knight.  There is a reason why Molly is now Winter Lady, perfect that Harry is her Knight for the fight.

Even though we didn't meet him until Summer Knight, Eb's presence was felt when Harry spoke of his faith in magic and the ethics of it.

Offline noblehunter

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #102 on: February 20, 2020, 04:40:40 PM »
I'm betting Eb dies at or near the beginning of the BAT. Taking him out would seriously weaken the White Council and be a good indication things are about to get much worse. If Jim really wants to drive home that the end of all things is just around the corner, both Eb and the Merlin will go down at the same time.

Though I'll hedge my bets with Eb going down in Peace Talks just because.

Offline Maz

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #103 on: February 20, 2020, 05:49:30 PM »
Just thinking...
What if Harry does get out of the Winter Knight gig...
by someone taking out the Winter Court.
Not Mab.  The whole thing.  Including Molly and his Mantle.

I mean if the Outsiders want to win they have to do it.  What if they do it a couple books early and you deprive reality of Mab and any successor.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #104 on: February 20, 2020, 06:34:46 PM »
Just thinking...
What if Harry does get out of the Winter Knight gig...
by someone taking out the Winter Court.
Not Mab.  The whole thing.  Including Molly and his Mantle.

I mean if the Outsiders want to win they have to do it.  What if they do it a couple books early and you deprive reality of Mab and any successor.
The outsiders win. There is a reason for Molly to faithfully do her duty. If it was just for Mabís pleasure she would have behaved quite differently.

She is in many respects totally different from Maeve.
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