Author Topic: The Next Knight  (Read 15100 times)

Offline dspringer1

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The Next Knight
« on: September 24, 2019, 04:36:45 PM »
Who among the characters we have already seen would make a good Knight.  And by that I mean someone who both has the potential to truly be a Knight (aka - personality/morals) and has the potential to be a tough/capable knight on an ongoing basis (aka - no one shot knights please).

Because of the need to be descended from a mortal ruler, a knight has to be at least part human in ancestery.  And arguably any pure supernatural like a vampire or fey would be excluded even if they were originally "born" a changeling or human.  I think humanity is an essential element, although I freely admit that nothing in the books directly supports this theory. 

Possible Candidates
*  Murphy - a long time candidate
*  An Alpha could be a candidate, but none of them seem to have the necessary exceptional moral character.  They are moral, but a Knight seems to need a bit more in this space.
*  I think if any of Michael's kids would get a sword, it would already have happened.  But one of them could face a true test and come out changed for the better. 
*  I have always found the Hellhound Kincaide to be an appealing candidate.  He seems an individual that has been in darkness for a very long time and is trying to pull himself out into the light (or at least twilight).  His clear approval of Dresden's orders to save the kids first rather than focus on killing vamps was the point where he popped up as a serious candidate in my mind. 
*  Charity would be an ideal candidate in many ways now, but I think she would prefer to be with her family.  She would rise if the call is made, but I think Uriel would not burden her with this duty as he knows she would (on some level) be unhappy in the role. 
*  Carlos could be a knight, but I suspect Knights and Wizards do not mix.   


Not a candidate
*  Any supernatural person already with a significant role like Ivy or any of the Fey. 
*  Thomas - at least as long as he is a White court vampire.   The act of feeding would be contrary to the ethos of a knight
*  Dresden himself - long established that he is a bit to grey for this
*  I do not think Marcone could be the knight.   He is also one who lives in darkness and has his code, but he just does not feel like a person who can rise to the light.   Rising to the grey seems like the best he can do.   It is them main difference between Kincaide and Marcone.  I think Kincaide can reach the light. 
*  I do not see Elaine as a candidate as she does not seem to fit in so many ways.   Not a bad or incompetent person, just does not "fit".  She lacks the idealism that is required -- and the desire to fight which is also pretty necessary.  I also think her moral code is a bit to flexible. 


Offline Bad Alias

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2019, 05:39:29 PM »
Marcone isn't worse than Sanya was. Jim loves a redemption story.

Offline Mira

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2019, 06:06:13 PM »
Marcone isn't worse than Sanya was. Jim loves a redemption story.

   Yeah,  I predicted Butters based on a passage from Dead Beat, and I was right.  Before him I thought Marcone had a pretty good chance at it, but since Changes, not so much.  I can see either
Thomas or Elaine taking up the remaining Sword..  However it could be little Maggie who will be grown by the time we get to the BAT...  Or going out on a limb here, Harry, himself will be using the Sword of Love...  Why?  Don't you think it odd that all wardens get a sword made for them by Luccio, Harry becomes a warden, she loses her skill to make them.  Harry is the Winter Knight yet he has no sword...   I know Harry claims to suck at using a sword, but none of the Holy Knights had skills before them became one...  Possible exception, Murphy because of her marshal arts background.  I just think when the time comes and humanity's future is on the line, Harry will go forth with the Sword of Love in hand...

Offline spiritofair

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2019, 06:12:50 PM »
Thomas. I don't know if being human is a requirement. Thomas is descended from essentially the King of the White Court. And, I mean, it's the Sword of Love. His "forbidden" love with Justine just begs for him to be the wielder of the Sword of Love.

I think it's way too soon to dismiss him because of his requirement to feed... His character seems ripe for some sort of redemption story where he somehow converts or casts out his demon. I can't imagine that there won't be some sort of "pay off" with Thomas, the half-vampire son of Maggie. I think there will be something happen with him and his demon. But maybe not until the BAT... obvious time would during "Empty Night" (assuming the working titles of the BAT are Hell's Bells, Empty Night, and Stars and Stones".

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Harry ends up "converting" Lasciel at some point, and then if Thomas can convert his demon, that would be a parallel that would be interesting. Could be Maggie set them both up to be key figures in the future of the Denarians (and maybe the entire angelic host?) and the future of the White Court. I mean, it's the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy... Massive change to the entire lanscape of reality (i.e. changes to how the angels work) would be applicable...

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2019, 07:12:17 PM »
Thomas does seem like a perfect thematic candidate for Amoracchious. I don't really see why it would be Harry. As to Harry not having a sword being a reason, at this point, most wardens don't have swords (at least ones crafted by Luccio). We've seen why Murphy isn't a good candidate. I'm not sure if Elaine has a significant role to play in the series (she's been on the shelf too long). Her most likely significant role is as Kumori or another agent of Nemesis.

Offline Avernite

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2019, 07:23:26 PM »
Given that Uriel invested in Harry as a spare/extra person-who-does-Knightly-things, it seems kind of a waste to make him one of the three.

I mean, his conflict against Hannah Ascher is almost textbook Knight work.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2019, 04:19:58 AM »
I think it pretty obvious that Jim is leaving the door open for Thomas. Mab hinted that Thomas would have been a suitable Winter Knight because he loved Justine so much, which was mortal enough for her. Thomas is also a skilled swordsman, so I think it would be an appropriate weapon upgrade for the apocalypse. And of course, Susan wielded Amorachius/Excalibur (Love), so we have precedent of a semi-vampire being wielding the swords. In fact, in the scene where she worries about whether she can touch it without being destroyed, Harry just tells he to swear she will be true to the sword and not commit any evils with it and to be do it for the love of Maggie. And it worked. I don't think the Almighty would have just let anyone wield the Swords. I suspect anyone who does wield them is because they were meant to, and chose to. There are no coincidences around the nails of Christ. The only other candidate I can think of who might use that sword is some reborn King Arthur-type. Marcone might fit that bill, but it would be a dark story line (which actually would fit in with the earliest Arthurian myths - the stories got watered down a lot over time). Harry is the wrong choice, as he is Merlin, not a king. He doesn't want to be and would be a poor ruler of men. Maybe Daniel Carpenter or some other Carpenter...there are not too many candidates off the top of my head.

Esperacchius/Durendal (Hope) would also fit Thomas, if Sanya fell. But I really hope Sanya doesn't as I really like the character. The only other wielders of hope would be someone from the BFG...Daniel Carpenter again perhaps?

As for Fidelacchius/Kusanagi (Faith), I suspect it will stay Butters. He has earned his Sword and his role. And he has a long road ahead. And not for nothing, the Star Wars motif is important. Hence Uriel liking the music (that is no throw away line - it is a big hint about how things work). 

And Murphy is a crazy choice. Did you not read the last book? She got basically crippled after using it when she wasn't meant to. If that wasn't a sign, I am not sure what is. And she broke it. I think between the physical, emotional and psychological scars she probably couldn't even if she wanted to. She unfortunately has had her time. I suspect sadly, that she will be killed off next book. She doesn't serve a purpose the way she used to as a character in the early series, and her arc is coming to a close sooner or later. Remember, her and Dresden just worked out they should be together when they have time. Each time, something bad happens to one of them. Harry got killed when they were first about to. There is a symmetry. Jim often says how he has to torture Harry, the book thrives on his pain. And our reaction to it. Believe me, it is coming sooner or later.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 05:24:40 AM by Yuillegan »

Offline Braincandy

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2019, 04:29:22 AM »
This is a case of me purely throwing "stuff" at the wall and seeing if it sticks. I am pulling for Thomas. In my version, he takes up the sword and the holy power banishes the demon, freeing him and letting him and Justine live their dream life, have kids and go into old age.

Offline Maz

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2019, 02:06:35 PM »
Don't we have a WoJ that Thomas isn't getting a sword, something to the effect of he already has a sword of love (eyebrow waggle)?

Offline Mira

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2019, 02:27:13 PM »
Given that Uriel invested in Harry as a spare/extra person-who-does-Knightly-things, it seems kind of a waste to make him one of the three.

I mean, his conflict against Hannah Ascher is almost textbook Knight work.

   It wouldn't in the sense that it would give him one more effective weapon..  I think it interesting that Harry has not only the Sword but the artifacts save the Grail under his control...  Here is a real tin hat thought,  given what Michael said about the Grail, what if Nic becomes redeemed by it's power, rejects his coin and noose, he could become the ultimate third Holy Knight...

Offline g33k

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2019, 08:51:16 PM »
Not necessarily the next knight, but eventually...

How about Molly?

I suspect the power of a Sword could overcome the grip of a Mantle, and free her; and I suspect Jim plans to reunite her with her family.  Maybe she could do that still with a mantle (either Queen to Come or Queen who Is), but I kind of think Jim might get her free of the Fae... eventually.
 

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2019, 05:53:43 PM »
The only other candidate I can think of who might use that sword is some reborn King Arthur-type. Marcone might fit that bill.
A thought struck me as I read this. What if Marcone is King Arthur? Not King Arthur reborn, but actually the same guy.

Harry has noticed a lot of his companions aging, sometimes he specifically notices that they are aging more/faster than him. Sometimes it's just the description is older. Murphy has gone from someone's "kid sister" to "favorite aunt." He has noticed that he now looks older than Thomas. I don't think Marcone's, like Mac's, description has really changed. John Marcone is just a name he's made up. It has been repeatedly mentioned by Jim, either directly or through characters, that Marcone would be viewed as a most virtuous feudal lord. Many Arthurian legends say Arthur will come back when most in need. Well the Dresdenverse is about to have an apocalypse.

Offline g33k

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2019, 09:03:14 PM »
.. What if Marcone is King Arthur? Not King Arthur reborn, but actually the same guy...

Seems unlikely to me, because in the soulgaze with Beckitt, Harry saw young-punk-Marcone.

That said, "reborn" works just amazingly well... Marcone as Arthur, Harry as Merlin, and Excalibur waiting for the right time...
 

Offline Mira

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2019, 10:01:54 PM »
A thought struck me as I read this. What if Marcone is King Arthur? Not King Arthur reborn, but actually the same guy.

Harry has noticed a lot of his companions aging, sometimes he specifically notices that they are aging more/faster than him. Sometimes it's just the description is older. Murphy has gone from someone's "kid sister" to "favorite aunt." He has noticed that he now looks older than Thomas. I don't think Marcone's, like Mac's, description has really changed. John Marcone is just a name he's made up. It has been repeatedly mentioned by Jim, either directly or through characters, that Marcone would be viewed as a most virtuous feudal lord. Many Arthurian legends say Arthur will come back when most in need. Well the Dresdenverse is about to have an apocalypse.

   I'd agree with most of it except for Thomas, his youthful appearance comes from being a White Court Vamp, as long as he is reasonably well fed, he will keep looking good.  So that gives him an advantage appearance/physically over Harry, in spite of Harry's advantages as a wizard, at some point Harry would begin to look older than Thomas who won't age at all..  And face it, Harry has been put through the mill a bit more than Thomas, his face reflects the battering that it has taken the last few years.   Having said that, Harry has a big advantage over his "normal" vanilla human friends,  unless something really bad happens that his normal wizard genes or Mab cannot fix, he will remain hardy and just be coming into his prime at eighty while most of his friends will be in the market of assisted living.

Offline exartiem

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Re: The Next Knight
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2019, 11:35:54 PM »
This is a case of me purely throwing "stuff" at the wall and seeing if it sticks. I am pulling for Thomas. In my version, he takes up the sword and the holy power banishes the demon, freeing him and letting him and Justine live their dream life, have kids and go into old age.

I agree with this.  He might not be a permanent Knight, he might just pick up the sword for one fight to protect his unborn child and emerge mortal.