Souls and Ghosts.

[Yuillegan]

Necroing this thread because it has become pertinent again:

BA - Why would that mean Sue has a soul? Sue wasn't a ghost in the first place. Ghosts are beings purely made of spirit. It was an animated skeleton with spirit flesh (that Harry created from his own power). The spirit of the old hunter was 65 million years old (according to Harry). He basically gave the beast it's mind back. It might have had a soul...but that seems unlikely considering Harry had no idea how to bring back a soul. Not to mention most Christian texts (and Judaism) as you point out don't consider beasts to have souls.

Except ignoring WOJ isn't a "perfectly acceptable analytical framework" as you put it. We're not dealing with science here. This is fiction. Jim sets the rules. He can change them as many times as he likes. We don't have to like it, but that's the way it is. He would probably lose his readership if he did it too often and overtly, but that's his choice. It is not the right of the reader to choose what elements are true and what are not. We can have opinions, but it's Jim's ideas. We didn't create it. We might ascertain meaning that Jim didn't intend, we might see things that are only created by reading from our perspective (which are not invalid), but we cannot change the facts of the books just because it doesn't suit us. That is arrogant in the supreme.

[Bad Alias]

What's the difference between a spirit of a once living creature and a ghost? Sue is a being of spirit, fossil, and flesh from the Nevernever. If a ghost is a being of pure spirit, then Sue is more than a ghost. And if we ignore Sue altogether, in the battle between Corpsetaker and Grevane, weren't horses used? Were they an extension of the dead soldiers' ghosts or were they their own ghosts?

I don't think that it is established, much less clearly, that a ghost is the byproduct of the soul.

It's literally a literary framework.

"The Death of the Author" (French: La mort de l'auteur) is a 1967 essay by the French literary critic and theorist Roland Barthes (1915–1980). Barthes' essay argues against traditional literary criticism's practice of incorporating the intentions and biographical context of an author in an interpretation of a text, and instead argues that writing and creator are unrelated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author.

[morriswalters]

Except ignoring WOJ isn't a "perfectly acceptable analytical framework" as you put it. We're not dealing with science here. This is fiction. Jim sets the rules. He can change them as many times as he likes. We don't have to like it, but that's the way it is. He would probably lose his readership if he did it too often and overtly, but that's his choice. It is not the right of the reader to choose what elements are true and what are not. We can have opinions, but it's Jim's ideas. We didn't create it. We might ascertain meaning that Jim didn't intend, we might see things that are only created by reading from our perspective (which are not invalid), but we cannot change the facts of the books just because it doesn't suit us. That is arrogant in the supreme.

I suppose this is where we fall out and decide not to be friends.   On this board and in this context, when arguing we have to agree on shared reality.  Please don't confuse this with facts. Fact are unchanging and they never have to be retconned. The books are not a unified whole.  And they aren't a unified whole in the mind of the author. If we limited ourselves to the text, there wouldn't be anything to discuss. We analyze emotions, intentions and things never revealed in the text.  You may read that as I/we make shit up.

In the case of souls and spirits it makes absolutely no difference in how you parse them.  They are interchangeable in effect, if not in fact. They are different only because Jim says they are, even though, when he writes, there are no markers that would let you analyze what each is. So for instance, if Harry is a soul wandering in the world without a body, is there any difference between him and Sir Stuart as a pure spirit?  You might also ask if Harry's spirit is wandering and not his soul, where is his soul, and what's it doing while his spirit is out on the town?  And in terms of spirits he has created at least four who can manifest, the Archive, Bob, Bonea, and evil Bob. Not to mention Lash who is a !!!Shadow!!!.

[Arjan]

A soul can enter a church and a ghost can not. That was in Ghost story.

[toodeep]

Also, a sliver of soul is what powers soulfire, whereas spirit gets consumed regularly when in ghost form.  Apparently spirit can regenerate or something when you are actually in a body.  It might be interesting to compare how much power Harry has to throw in terms of magic when in his body to when in spirit form.  It may be that the limit he hits is literally the limit of his spirit energy. 

What I also wonder about from a story perspective, is that Harry never called upon winter or on soulfire in Ghost Story.  It leaves a lot to wonder about.  But then, he didn't seem to have to fight winter urges while out of body, so it does make one wonder if his connection to winter is more to his body then his spirit/soul (which seems odd, personally).

[morriswalters]

A soul can enter a church and a ghost can not. That was in Ghost story.

Specifically the Nightmare. Okay, can Sir Stuart not enter a church?  He gets a job with Uriel.  That appears to be a logical contradiction.  Was it his ghostiness that kept the Nightmare out or something else.  In the same passage Jim calls it an anomaly.  And just because the Nightmare came up, Ghost Story is the second time Harry has been dead and produced a ghost.

[morriswalters]

A soul can enter a church and a ghost can not. That was in Ghost story.

Specifically the Nightmare. Okay, can Sir Stuart not enter a church?  He gets a job with Uriel.  That appears to be a logical contradiction.  Was it his ghostiness that kept the Nightmare out or something else.  In the same passage Jim calls it an anomaly.  And just because the Nightmare came up, Ghost Story is the second time Harry has been dead and produced a ghost.

[morriswalters]

A soul can enter a church and a ghost can not. That was in Ghost story.

Specifically the Nightmare. Okay, can Sir Stuart not enter a church?  He gets a job with Uriel.  That appears to be a logical contradiction.  Was it his ghostiness that kept the Nightmare out or something else.  In the same passage Jim calls it an anomaly.  And just because the Nightmare came up, Ghost Story is the second time Harry has been dead and produced a ghost.

[morriswalters]

A soul can enter a church and a ghost can not. That was in Ghost story.

Specifically the Nightmare. Okay, can Sir Stuart not enter a church?  He gets a job with Uriel.  That appears to be a logical contradiction.  Was it his ghostiness that kept the Nightmare out or something else.  In the same passage Jim calls it an anomaly.  And just because the Nightmare came up, Ghost Story is the second time Harry has been dead and produced a ghost.

[morriswalters]

A soul can enter a church and a ghost can not. That was in Ghost story.

The was the Nightmare.  Could Sir Stuart have entered? Seems silly to hire Sir Stuart and tell him he isn't welcome in his house. And in the text Harry notes this as an anomaly.  And since we are on the wayback machine this is Harry's second round as a ghost.  Makes Vadderung look a little foolish.

[Arjan]

The was the Nightmare.  Could Sir Stuart have entered? Seems silly to hire Sir Stuart and tell him he isn't welcome in his house. And in the text Harry notes this as an anomaly.  And since we are on the wayback machine this is Harry's second round as a ghost.  Makes Vadderung look a little foolish.

But maybe sir Stuart was not a ghost. I have argued that ser Stuart was a soul just like Harry and Corpstaker on this forum before. there are several reasons to believe so and Uriel’s interest is one of them. Uriel is all about souls. As Morty’s ancestor he could have had the talent for it.

And Harry was not just a ghost, that was what the book was all about. It was just that most rules were similar but not the holy ground thing. Holy ground is for souls, dead or alive.

[g33k]

... In the case of souls and spirits it makes absolutely no difference in how you parse them.  They are interchangeable in effect, if not in fact. They are different only because Jim says they are, even though, when he writes, there are no markers that would let you analyze what each is ...

The distinction remains unclear, and it's obviously unclear even to many in the setting; even Morty seemed to think Harry was a more-or-less ordinary ghost.  But, as you say -- Jim says they are different.  So for the Dresdenverse, they... are.  That's just a fact.

And it isn't clear how and why that's important, but... evidently, it is important.

Presumably, we'll learn more in future books.
 

[Mira]

The distinction remains unclear, and it's obviously unclear even to many in the setting; even Morty seemed to think Harry was a more-or-less ordinary ghost.  But, as you say -- Jim says they are different.  So for the Dresdenverse, they... are.  That's just a fact.

And it isn't clear how and why that's important, but... evidently, it is important.

Presumably, we'll learn more in future books.

  Harry wasn't, because he was only mostly dead, as in slightly alive the whole time, Bob could tell the difference.  Sir Steward as far as we know is all dead, I doubt there is any loose change in his pockets.   

[morriswalters]

And it isn't clear how and why that's important, but... evidently, it is important.

It's important because it's the the central conceit of Ghost Story, is he or isn't he dead?  Jim appears to be very flexible about ghosthood.  In Grave Peril Harry dies so he can come back as a ghost and then get revived to save the day.  He has Harry and Harry's ghost attack Kravos at the same time. All while in a dream no less.

“That’s the only bad thing about this gig as a ghost. Once you accomplish whatever it was that caused you to get created, you’re done. Kravos—the real Kravos—is already gone. Just his shell stayed behind. And this would have happened to him, too, if he’d killed you.”

  So there are facts and there are facts.

[Arjan]

The distinction remains unclear, and it's obviously unclear even to many in the setting; even Morty seemed to think Harry was a more-or-less ordinary ghost.  But, as you say -- Jim says they are different.  So for the Dresdenverse, they... are.  That's just a fact.

And it isn't clear how and why that's important, but... evidently, it is important.

Presumably, we'll learn more in future books.

Monty knows the distinction. He only assumes that most who think they are souls are self deluding ghosts.

But the most important difference is stated more than once. The soul is really you, it is the essence of you and not a mere reflection. It can go on to what comes next or sometimes even return to life. It is what Uriel tries to save and it has free will, it can make meaningful choices.

It is late antiquity Greek magic thinking. It is the essence of what makes you you.