Author Topic: Candidates for future Nemfection?  (Read 26416 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Candidates for future Nemfection?
« on: August 23, 2019, 05:49:25 AM »
So far there have been four characters who we know to have been Nemfected.  They are the late Summer and Winter Ladies Aurora and Maeve, the Leanansidhe and Cat Sith.  I once read speculation that the Red King wasn't just going senile, he may have been nemfected himself, but until there is a WOJ or something said in the books that confirms this, I can't include the Red King on this list.  Plus, the Red Court is dead while Summer and Winter are very much alive, even if the two Ladies I mentioned are not.  So I don't care very much whether Big Red was or wasn't nemfected.

We don't know where Cat Sith is and it appears that Lea was cured by Mab or is at least in remission.  I think Lea said something in Ghost Story about not talking or dwelling on touchy subjects too long, because it could make her vulnerable.  I'm actually going to post something much longer on this topic, so I don't want to get into the weeds of how Nemesis works it's magic on its victims.  What I want is to ask everyone a question.

Who do you think is likely to be a target for Nemesis to infect with its poison in future?  If you think it will one of the fae, because they are only type of beings in the Dresden verse who can be nemfected, that's fine.  I think you're wrong, but even if anyone can be nemfected, the next victim might still be one of the fae.  (I just had an odd thought.  Let's say that normally, only the fae are vulnerable.  Could Fix and Harry be vulnerable, even though they're mortals, because they carry the mantles of Summer and Winter, respectively?  It's just a thought.)  Feel free to name any character you wish.

I thought about doing this as a poll, but I'd have to list just about every character in the books who is still alive.  So feel free to name any character you wish.  Also, what makes that character a good candidate?  I don't have an answer myself.  I'm just curious to see what everyone else thinks and I think it would be interesting if several people name the same character, because I'd like to know why they see this character becoming nemfected when I don't.     
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2019, 10:50:39 AM »
I personally believe Nemesis can affect just about anyone (excluding Archangels - WOJ on this) but not everyone. If the goal of Nemesis was to infect as many beings as possible, it would probably work a lot faster like a pandemic. But I tend to think it chooses its victims with care, it only goes after specifically vulnerable people. Also, I think it is "new". New is a relative term of course, but essentially most people who know of it seem to treat it like a new player in the game. Also, it doesn't affect everyone who knows of it. It only seems to infect certain types of people - and discards them if they become no longer useful. It certainly tries to be less overt and stay undiscovered. But the type of person it goes after, the profile of its victims, seems relatively uniform. That is: power-hungry, angry, resentful, ambitious, perhaps already somewhat mad, someone who wants things to change.

Cat Sith is the only one who is hard to profile, as it is unclear when he became infected and whether we ever met the "real" Cat Sith. But Lea, Aurora, Maeve, Victor Sells and the others all seem to fit the mold.

So with that in mind and to answer your question, I think the next person to be infected will be LARA RAITH. Assuming she isn't already. And I suspect we might even get a hint of it come Peace Talks. Why? She fits the mold (ambitious, wants to change things up, perhaps a tad mad, and very power-hungry). She also makes a dangerous villain and a difficult problem that can not be just blasted out of existence. Harry will ahve to outmanouvre her, which will be difficult.

Offline Mira

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2019, 11:01:15 AM »


   I don't think Victor Sells was infected, in my opinion he was what is called a "useful idiot.."   You forgot that Mab, herself, was infected but she caught it in time.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2019, 03:42:25 PM »
When was Mab infected?

I think all the events listed by Lily of people acting against their natures is a good place to start, but she was be fed information by Maeve, and those events could have been (and some definitely were) orchestrated by players off screen. It could be the players off screen who were nemfected and not the actors on stage, to slightly mix my metaphors.

I lean towards the idea that mortals can't be nemfected. I think mortal corruption by the forces of Outside is what the black magic taint is. I'm quite willing to admit that these opinions aren't even close to proven.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2019, 04:33:17 PM »
I'd like to sign up, if the Outsiders are taking applications right now. It'd be nice to abdicate responsibility for my actions, you know.

Offline Mira

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2019, 04:36:42 PM »
When was Mab infected?

I think all the events listed by Lily of people acting against their natures is a good place to start, but she was be fed information by Maeve, and those events could have been (and some definitely were) orchestrated by players off screen. It could be the players off screen who were nemfected and not the actors on stage, to slightly mix my metaphors.

I lean towards the idea that mortals can't be nemfected. I think mortal corruption by the forces of Outside is what the black magic taint is. I'm quite willing to admit that these opinions aren't even close to proven.

Remember in Proven Guilty at Arctus Tor when Harry was talking to Lea?  Lea was on ice, but Mab was beside her also on ice.. Now either she was hiding or when she realized what was happening with Lea and her own contact with the Knife she decided an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure.. Or since she did have contact, she wore the Knife for a time, Mab decided best to treat before she started to show symptoms, upon which it might be too late because in her madness she'd think she didn't need to be treated..

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2019, 05:10:43 PM »
I’m not a big believer in the Mab is Nfected but fighting it theory, although I am a little puzzled as to why Mab was in the Winter garden during PG. if I were playing devils advocate, perhaps this is why the BC assault on Arctis Tor mysteriously stops in the courtyard before the spire in PG - they were able to Nfect Mab, so they didn’t need to press their attack further. However they don’t know that Mab has a way to defeat Nfection (becoming a Sidhecicle in the Wellspring).

@Mira
I would point out that while Harry refers to Lea as a Sidhecicle, Mab is referred to as an ice statue - so perhaps they weren’t undergoing the same thing. It is also possible that the fight with the BC assault team took a lot out of Mab & she needs to heal - perhaps this is the way the high Winter Sidhe heal?

As a side note, I believe an individual Nemesis vector can jump from host to host but not split itself into 2, thereby Nfecting 2 people. So if Lea were Nfected by the athame, the athame no longer carried an Outsider (unless it had 2 Outsiders hidden inside I suppose).

@Bad Alias
While I agree with you about Nfection being ineffective with mortals, I disagree with the black magic taint being caused by the Outside bit. I believe rather that the taint is what allows practitioners to reach Outside if they so choose.
Here is a side question, do you believe that necromancy is powered/ created by the Outside, or it is a natural force within the DV?

Offline Mira

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2019, 07:29:41 PM »
Quote
As a side note, I believe an individual Nemesis vector can jump from host to host but not split itself into 2, thereby Nfecting 2 people. So if Lea were Nfected by the athame, the athame no longer carried an Outsider (unless it had 2 Outsiders hidden inside I suppose).

That depends, if it is one organism yes, but if it is many tiny ones like a virus or bacteria, then it could infect many at once....  Personally I don't see a whole lot of difference between an "icesycle" and an ice statue in this case, both Lea and Mab were encased in ice..  And when you think about it, if the infection organism can think why was Mab immune when she wore the Knife for a time?  That makes no sense, plus Maeve was also fatally infected by the Knife after it was passed on to her by Lea I believe... Not clear on the last if it was Mab who gave it to her after she got it from Lea, or Lea who gave it to Maeve who in turn handed it over to Mab..  Who at some point realized the danger it presented, in time to help Lea but too late to help Maeve.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 02:40:39 PM by Mira »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2019, 07:32:49 PM »
Lea's words to Harry in Changes provide a clue as to the nature of Nemfections.
Quote
“A madness had beset me,” she whispered. “Robbed me of myself. Treacherous gifts . . .” She shook her head. “I can think on it no more, lest it make me vulnerable once again. Suffice to say that I am much better now.” She stroked a fingertip over an icy white streak in her hair. “The strength of my queen prevailed, and my mind is mine own.”
I think that a Nemfection  is precisely that.  An infection rather than an entity.  A conduit to something else. Like putting a transmitter in your mind.  And that once you have it, it's always there.

There is no way of knowing for certain why Mab was hiding in the garden.  However you may be able to draw an inference from how Jim revealed her presence to the reader. 


Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2019, 11:49:29 PM »
I personally believe Nemesis can affect just about anyone (excluding Archangels - WOJ on this) but not everyone. If the goal of Nemesis was to infect as many beings as possible, it would probably work a lot faster like a pandemic. But I tend to think it chooses its victims with care, it only goes after specifically vulnerable people. Also, I think it is "new". New is a relative term of course, but essentially most people who know of it seem to treat it like a new player in the game. Also, it doesn't affect everyone who knows of it. It only seems to infect certain types of people - and discards them if they become no longer useful. It certainly tries to be less overt and stay undiscovered. But the type of person it goes after, the profile of its victims, seems relatively uniform. That is: power-hungry, angry, resentful, ambitious, perhaps already somewhat mad, someone who wants things to change.

I think there must be limitations to how Nemesis infects people or a strict limit on the number of victims it can put under the influence, because you are right.  Without such limits the situation would look something like a pandemic or "Invasion of the Body Snatchers."  The main difference would be that Nemesis wouldn't have to take over everyone.  It would only need to reach a single wizard of the White Council, a single member of the White Court, a single member of Winter or Summer, and sooner or later nemfection would spread to the leaders of each organization.  We know that didn't happen with Lea, because if Mab was telling Harry the whole truth at the end of Cold Days, Maeve was only one the illness was passed on to, and it's also possible that Aurora was the only member of the Summer Court to get the Nemesis flu.

Cat Sith is the only one who is hard to profile, as it is unclear when he became infected and whether we ever met the "real" Cat Sith. But Lea, Aurora, Maeve, Victor Sells and the others all seem to fit the mold.

Cat Sith is the odd man out (literally) in what has happened so far.  If Harry was correct, Cat Sith was grabbed by Sharkface, A.K.A. HWWB4, when the Malk progenitor was helping Harry out at the nature preserve (whatever it was called).  It's difficult to see how Nemesis could use Sith now.  I assume Mab would have figured it out what happened to Harry's batman, even if Harry failed to report it.  It will be interesting if we see Grimalkin again and find out that he's been promoted.

So with that in mind and to answer your question, I think the next person to be infected will be LARA RAITH. Assuming she isn't already. And I suspect we might even get a hint of it come Peace Talks. Why? She fits the mold (ambitious, wants to change things up, perhaps a tad mad, and very power-hungry). She also makes a dangerous villain and a difficult problem that can not be just blasted out of existence. Harry will ahve to outmanouvre her, which will be difficult.

Lara would definitely be a target unless some limitation on Nemesis prevents that from happening.  It might be necessary to make Lara an ally instead of taking her over.  It appears Lord Raith made a deal with Nemesis or HWWB (same thing really) for magical protection, probably in exchange for future help.  Lara might be offered the same deal or something similar.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 12:01:24 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2019, 03:19:13 AM »
Here is a side question, do you believe that necromancy is powered/ created by the Outside, or it is a natural force within the DV?

I think there are two types of black magic. There is the "unlawful" use of magic, like burning someone to death. Then there is the type of "oily" black magic Harry first runs into in, I think, Grave Peril. Necromancy would be a subset of the second type. I think the second type is, if nor directly from, associated with the Outside.

@Mira: I'm not sure if Lea infected Maeve with the knife, or the knife infected Lea and Lea infected Maeve.
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and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right.
Chapter 53, Cold Days

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2019, 04:13:58 AM »
Lara has always been one of those background villains, the devil you know. But definitely more worrying than even Marcone - she has better networks and has been in the game longer. Which isn't to say people should underestimate Marcone, but I think strategically she is expanding faster than he is. I think she is aware that things are about to shake up and is preparing accordingly. But I also think she is the epitome of her race, patient and dangerous but not apathetic. The appearance of being a good option, an easy ally. The White Court kill you with comfort. I always remember that line from Madeline Raith "We have pens for the kine. We call them cities". I think I am paraphrasing, but you get the point. Chilling words - using our own structures against us.

Yeah Nemesis is tricky, and either there are hard limits on how many and who it can infect or it imposes limits on itself and chooses selectively. Curiously, I always thought Titania was a good candidate for infection. She told Harry its name (which doesn't rule her - Maeve told Lily so we know that is one tactic it employs) but after that chat Harry sees the Mothers, and I feel if they were worried about that they would have implied that was the case. WOJ is that Titania will only really start having a bigger role during the BAT, which suggests she is going to make some big moves.

Just to be clear - canon is currently that Victor Sells was infected. I know that Maeve could have fed Lily misinformation, but until we get actual contradictory evidence, all we are actually doing is speculating. I am not entirely sure why we all believe that it is so unlikely that Nemesis can infect mortals/humans. Remember Leonid Kravos and the FBI agents were also in that list - which makes sense. The Gatekeeper virtually confirms this when he tells Harry that whether he meant to or not, his cases have resulted in placing thumbs in the Adversary's eye (or something to that effect).
Lily also refers to it as "a disease, a parasite, a poison...a contagion" "a spiritual malady. A mental plague. An infection spreading slowly across the earth". So she is saying it is a sentient virus of sorts. All virus' are living things so to distinguish between an infection and an entity when discussing a malevolent spiritual entity is sort of redundant. Remember Titania and the Mothers remind Harry not to say Nemesis but rather say the Adversary "lest it hear you" so it at least is somewhat sentient. It also takes full control of Cat Sith for a moment so the evidence tends to support the fact it is a sentient creature.

Lily says it "changes which ought not to change. It destroys a father's love for his family by twisting it into maniacal ambition. It distorts and corrupts the good intentions of agents of mortal law into violence and death. It erodes the sensible fear that keeps a weakly talented sorcerer from reaching out for more power, no matter the cost". All of which is true. Now we might all speculate that there is other reasons that they were corrupted. But Occam's Razor - simplest explanation is the right one.

I had not heard the theory Mab was infected...but it seems rather unlikely. And Mira, not a fact either - it certainly isn't yet canon just speculation at this point. Mab has always acted like Mab - the seeds of doubt were there true enough. But mostly Maeve was the one pointing the finger (so we know that is pretty questionable). Could Mab even stop it if she were infected? Despite all of Leah's power, she was no match. Attacks from within are the hardest to defend against. Most people Harry talked to, including the Gatekeeper and the Mothers seemed to believe being Mab was no obstacle to being infected. I always infered that Mab was hiding in that garden due to secondary events that were happening - namely she wanted to see the rescue of Molly. Which was one of her plans all along - else none of them would have ever left. Mab never just has one plan and she was setting up Molly to be a potential Winter Lady one way or another.

Winter seems to have a fundamental property that is related to pain and logic that seems to be a counter to the corrupting nature of the Outside. Almost like it was specifically built for it. I suspect that is partly why it is Winter, not Summer, that guards the Outer Gates. That cold and terrible power seems to be somewhere between an immune system, antibody and cure (within limits) to the Outsider corruption. Not necessarily Nemesis specifically, but it worked well enough. Both Winter's nature and structure is that of a defense for reality.

Kbrizzle: I am not sure I agree with the idea that the Athame carried a presence at all. I think there was a WOJ that discussed how Nemesis infects its victims and whilst Jim was tight-lipped about it, there was the indication that it was something to do with the possibility of infection. Which was implied to be an imbalance of power. So I don't think there was a sentience in the knife, rather that the power of the knife itself was tainted and allowed for an opening into the Leanansidhe. So it doesn't really need to split, rather it extends itself. Whether the Athame is still tainted or not is hard to say...although you will notice that Mab was wearing it after she imprisoned Lea so I would say not. 

Bad Alias: I think you are pretty much right about magic. There is the kind of dark magic which is based in the same origins as good magic (to be so simplistic) - origins are from Inside, from Life. Then there is a kind of black magic, including Necromancy, that's source is Outsider based or at least Outside based. There definitely is a qualitative difference in the black magic that say, Corpsetaker uses, and the black magic Leonid Kravos or Victor Sells uses. Which isn't to say that one cannot use both types of black magic, and that there is no connection at all, but there is definitely a descriptive difference (that even Dresden notices). Curiously, Cowl's "normal" magic seems to be of the first kind of black magic (the source is Life). It seems he plays with both kinds.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2019, 04:50:03 AM »
@Yuillegan
The reason I think that Nemesis cannot affect mortals is exactly because of what Lily says - it changes things that ought not to change. Immortals are incapable of free will, & hence they cannot choose to change themselves even if they so desired.
Mortals however can choose to change, & do so often - what is the added benefit provided by Nemesis here apart from directing the nature of the choice to change? There are several ways Nemesis could influence a mortal’s choice without Nfecting them.
I also find Sells’ story to be more powerful without Nemesis being part of it. The story of a man driven to insanity by his unquenchable thirst for power shows the real pitfalls & dangers of black magic - this is why the WC forbids certain acts, because unchecked these acts lead to people becoming like Sells, Kravos & the beheaded Korean kid.

I take the Gatekeeper’s words about Harry being an obstacle to a lot of Outsider plans for most of the series as almost every bad guy Harry faces in the casefiles is either on the Black Council or being manipulated by them as a cats paw, not necessarily that they are all Nfected.

@Yuillegan & Bad Alias
I like the idea that there are 2 separate things kinds of black magic - the taint on someone’s soul from regular use/ one big use of black magic, & actually using the un-life spectrum of energy (since Harry says that his type of magic uses the life spectrum) to wield black magic.
I think one leads to the other - one cannot wield the un-life spectrum of energy without having a black magic taint on their soul. This is why Harry is adept at necromancy in DB - he has a huge taint on his soul from HWWB (and the fact that he has killed before).
However I do believe that in order to be able to wield magic from the un-life spectrum, one must seek knowledge from beyond the Outer Gates.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2019, 07:38:56 AM »
It was Felicia Raith who made the comment about the pens. Madeline was already dead. I agree with kbrizzle's interpretation of what Lily said, but it's all very speculative at this point.

Offline Mira

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Re: Candidates for future Nemfection?
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2019, 02:48:06 PM »
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I had not heard the theory Mab was infected...but it seems rather unlikely. And Mira, not a fact either - it certainly isn't yet canon just speculation at this point. Mab has always acted like Mab -
Quote

As I said, it isn't clear, only that she had put herself on ice along with Lea.. Harry never asked Mab, and Lea was too out of it to say one way or the other...   However it is a fact that Mab for a time wore the Knife, the next time Harry sees her after the Party she is wearing it on her belt.  This means she is exposed to the "infection or infestation" so just as you or I would take steps if we were exposed to germs or contamination to prevent getting sick, I think this is what Mab did.   So while it isn't confirmed one way or the other, it seems like a logical answer to me.