Author Topic: Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?  (Read 1412 times)

Offline Hankthemoose

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Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« on: August 17, 2019, 08:34:12 AM »
Erasing the awareness of a supernatural entity prevents it from being able to interact with reality, right?

The Oblivion War is basically about taking gods, and other Big Bads and causing them to be forgotten, so that they disappear.

The thing is, this basically also describes the whole situation with the Old Ones, who are confirmed outsiders. So, are some/all of the current Outsiders just former Insiders, trying to get home?

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2019, 05:58:32 PM »
I get that impression, and some here have stated it as accepted fact. But, the Outsiders are always described as not of this world, completely alien. On the other hand, Harry doesn't know about the Oblivion War, so we should take that into account. Back to that first hand, if they were former occupants, they would not be so alien; they would probably work against one another; once one got back in, it probably wouldn't worry too much about the the other Outsiders.

Online Arjan

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Re: Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2019, 10:03:54 PM »
From Ghost Story:

Quote
“This isn’t your world,” I whispered.
“Not now,” He Who Walks Behind murmured, its smile widening. “But it will be ours again in just a little time.”
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2019, 03:06:32 AM »
Hmmmmmmm

Maybe.

Could go either way. Although I think Bad Alias is pretty right.

Doesn't mean that there isn't a connection though. Although I think Jim said we will never see much of the Oblivion War in the Dresden files...so perhaps not.

Arjan - HWWBh I believe was referring to the when the Outsiders and the Old Ones ruled the "world". Not so much the old gods, which are of our world. Jim does seem to leave it vague on purpose though.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2019, 12:48:27 AM »
Jim does seem to leave it vague on purpose though.
This really seems like a "six of one and half a dozen of the other" situation.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2019, 03:27:33 AM »
Bad Alias: Pretty much. All we can do is wait for more information on one or both...which is probably years away.

Online Arjan

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Re: Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2019, 08:46:28 AM »
Hmmmmmmm

Maybe.

Could go either way. Although I think Bad Alias is pretty right.

Doesn't mean that there isn't a connection though. Although I think Jim said we will never see much of the Oblivion War in the Dresden files...so perhaps not.

Arjan - HWWBh I believe was referring to the when the Outsiders and the Old Ones ruled the "world". Not so much the old gods, which are of our world. Jim does seem to leave it vague on purpose though.
I think you can see beyond the outer gates as a remote part of the nevernever if you want. Words can mean different things for different people.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2019, 07:11:44 AM »
Arjan, while I normally love a qualitative answer, at this stage this answer isn't.

It has been flatly, explicitly stated several times in the books and in WOJs that there is an intrinsic difference between The Outside/The Netherworld and the Nevernever and our world. We are not told why. This is a fundamental mystery to the series.

Ortega explains the origins of Mordite to Susan in Blood Rites, in Turn Coat Harry makes the statement the Mistfiend is from the Nevernever and is infused with Mordite (although later Harry always refers to the Mistfiend as an Outsider...so this seems to be either a mistake in Turn Coat or a full on retcon), and many many more examples besides. But they constantly and consistently distinguish The Outside/The Netherworld as something different from the Nevernever and our universe/world. One such WOJ even explains that Outsiders look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into, implying the Nevernever is unique to Dresden's universe.

I do get what you're saying, sometimes the ambiguity is on purpose and is up to the reader to interpret. But not in this case. I have yet to see or hear of one reference since the book started that says the Outsiders are part of the Nevernever. The clue is in the name OUTsiders. They are Outside trying to get In. If they are already in the Nevernever, they wouldn't be called the Outsiders.

In DnD - Outsiders are part of the established multi-verse just in some far corner. Whilst this could be the case, it seems Jim has written it differently on purpose.

Online Arjan

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Re: Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2019, 07:47:07 AM »
I remember the mistfiend inconsistency. It might not be an inconsistency.

There is a wall and if you break it you can walk through. The simplest explanation is that without the wall there is a continuum.

If there is a continuum than the borders are arbitrary, created by convention. Created by this side to keep the worst and most alien things out. Reinforced with the walls. So of course most or all of our sources stress the difference, that reinforces the walls.

So it becomes a matter of definition. You can look at it differently
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2019, 08:02:45 AM »
Well true enough. Assuming there is a continuum of reality and unreality. There are no certainties in life.

The way it was looked at in ancient times is that reality was sort of like a cosmic egg, floating in an endless sea of chaos. If you consider it that way, the borders are the shell of the egg, and the sea is the Outside.

In a way, everything is a matter of definition. But for the purposes of the series, I think the Walls are very much a literal barrier with a fundamental difference to the matter of the Outside (for want of a better word...can unreality have matter? Mordite?)

The easiest and most clear definition would be to understand what existed before reality (if there even was a before...although Jim says the Angels predate Time itself - which makes the whole concept of before somewhat pointless). Cause and Effect have no place in such an existence. Which then would lead us to the nature of TWG and Creation itself, and it/their purpose. I would love Jim to write a fantastic theory that suits the rules that he has made, but I cannot be sure he will go that deep.

Language makes this whole thing more complicated. In many cultures and languages other than English, Past is not "before" and Future is not "after". Sometime Past is "left" and Future is "right", sometimes "below" and "above" respectively. And many others.

So as you imply, it comes down to how you look at it, in that way. But I also think the Author's intent should not be diminished or dismissed - and I think in a quantitative sense, he considers the Nevernever and our Universe distinctly and intrinsically separate. Food for thought!

Online Arjan

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Re: Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2019, 01:14:59 PM »
As I see it the nevernever is given shape by human fantasy and some stuff is so disturbing that you wall it out.

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