Would the Knights have gone after the Denarians in the beginning of SmF if...

[morriswalters]

Why not? Shiro went to rescue Harry from Nicodemus when he was basically in the same situation as Marcone was--i.e. "take up a coin or else."

Shiro went to Nic's lair in Death Masks to die for Harry, not kill Nic.

[nadia.skylark]

Shiro went to Nic's lair in Death Masks to die for Harry, not kill Nic.

Very true. And I'm saying, "In Small Favor, why didn't the Knights hunt down the Denarians to save Marcone, rather than to kill the Denarians?"

[morriswalters]

How would the Knights hunt down anyone?  If they don't get heavenly guidance they're just like me and you in terms of finding people.  Harry doesn't find them for that matter, they find Harry.  And thus the conversation with Michael.  At this point Harry isn't aware the island exists, and has no way to track the Denarians assuming Michael said yes to a preemptive attack.

[nadia.skylark]

How would the Knights hunt down anyone?  If they don't get heavenly guidance they're just like me and you in terms of finding people.  Harry doesn't find them for that matter, they find Harry.  And thus the conversation with Michael.  At this point Harry isn't aware the island exists, and has no way to track the Denarians assuming Michael said yes to a preemptive attack.

1) At this point, none of them know that there is (supposedly) no way to track the Denarians.

2) I still don't see why Harry didn't at least try sending the Za Lord's Guard out looking for them.

3) I wonder if a Denarian coin could be used in tracking spells? (And what the result of doing so would be?)

[Mira]

Why not? Shiro went to rescue Harry from Nicodemus when he was basically in the same situation as Marcone was--i.e. "take up a coin or else."

In Harry's case in Death Mask it was a little more complicated than that.   The mission from Heaven
was to keep Harry safe,  yes, Shiro unknown at the moment was dying of cancer was willing to take Harry's place.

[nadia.skylark]

In Harry's case in Death Mask it was a little more complicated than that.   The mission from Heaven
was to keep Harry safe,  yes, Shiro unknown at the moment was dying of cancer was willing to take Harry's place.

I'm not sure how the fact that Shiro was dying of cancer has an impact on the Knights' willingness to rescue people.

Let's use another example of the Knights rescuing someone: Ivy.

The situations are parallel. Both people were kidnapped through use of that giant pentagram, for purposes of forcing them to accept a coin. In both instances the Knights were not getting any holy bat-signals of where to find them, but believed that they could be found in other ways. In Marcone's case, they refused to go look for him, and in Ivy's case, they agreed to go look for her.

Differences between the two are:
1) Marcone's a bad guy, and Ivy's a good guy
2) scale of potential damage
3) by the time they went looking for Ivy, Harry had convinced Michael that Lasciel's shadow wasn't around to screw with him
I can't think of any others.

For 1, the Knights of the Cross aren't supposed to judge people, so I don't see how this should matter. You could argue that, per Skin Game, the Knights of the Cross have a special responsibility towards innocents, which Marcone was not. However, in context of when Michael said that in Skin Game, it seemed to mean that an innocent was someone who hadn't chosen to expose themselves to whatever danger, and since Ivy had chosen to expose herself to the danger of the Denarians when she agreed to mediate the dispute, she shouldn't count either.

For 2, Michael made it clear in Skin Game that the stakes of a single soul was enough to risk an archangel Falling, so the fact that Marcone's soul was in danger should have been enough.

That leaves 3 as the only reason I can think of for the difference.

Can other people think of other reasons?

[morriswalters]

Harry's tracking spells require something linked to the thing he's tracking, Does he have something that I'm unaware of?

When the Denarians aren't looking all demonish, they look just like anyone else.  There are over 8 million people in Chicago.  Exactly what would you have Toot and company look for.

Say you had a coin to track, you do understand you would find yourself?

In Marcone's case, they refused to go look for him, and in Ivy's case, they agreed to go look for her.

They didn't refuse to look for him,  Michael refused to strike the Denarians without first offering a chance of repentance to them, which is what Harry wants.

[g33k]

I'm not sure how the fact that Shiro was dying of cancer has an impact on the Knights' willingness to rescue people.

I think the argument is:
Shiro did not go to rescue Harry.
Shiro went to die in place of Harry.

I'm not sure if there's any WoJ on this point.

But it makes a strong argument:  when a Knight steps up in that way, their choice to pay that price is the key feature of the event.  Whether there is a "rescue" involved, or another foil-the-bad-guys plan, the Knight's sacrifice is the defining thing.
 
Therefore (goes the argument) that incident has no real bearing on any discussion of knightly-rescuing; that wasn't what the event was about.
 
I'm not convinced the argument is correct; but I observe it to be a very-strong argument, and one not readily susceptible to being refuted.
 

[Kindler]

3) I wonder if a Denarian coin could be used in tracking spells? (And what the result of doing so would be?)

Now I'm picturing Harry traipsing across Chicago and finding a portal to Hell. Probably near the DMV.

On topic: I don't think they would, no. Michael's argument is ideological; he does not want to risk the Swords in a preemptive strike. You argue that they could have gone after them without the intent to kill; that's what they eventually do. But the stakes were much higher at that point. Not only is there a child in danger, there's the risk of nuclear strike(s).

As far as Michael mistrusting Harry, I don't believe that, at that point in the story, Michael found Harry's behavior odd yet. I think it was the battle in the train station that tipped Michael off; in pitch blackness against Hobbs, which are harmed by light itself, fire is kinda the obvious weapon. Harry didn't use it offensively at all—he only used his Ball o' Sunshine spell (an important distinction; Harry doesn't think of it as Fire. Also funny to note that that's when Middle Gruff shows up.)

I think that the train station fight cued Michael that there was something wrong, and that that's when he began seriously suspecting that Lasciel was messing with his head—trying to prevent Dresden from fighting at his best, and possibly keep him from messing with the Denarians.

[Mira]

I'm not sure how the fact that Shiro was dying of cancer has an impact on the Knights' willingness to rescue people.

Shiro took Harry's place for Nic to torture and then infect with the plague...  Harry felt guilty about that so before any of that even began, Shiro wrote a letter along with his diagnosis saying that he was dying anyway...  Shiro was willing to rescue Harry, but there was a special reason for him doing it..  The fact that he was dying anyway altered a bit his sacrifice for Harry...

Rescuing Ivy wasn't all that important,  keeping the Archive out of Denarian hands is another matter all together..   

[morriswalters]

Michael passed the report to Sanya and smiled. "Shiro must have known that we would need you to stop the Denarians. It's why he traded himself for your freedom. And why he accepted the curse in your place."

Now if you want to call it a rescue mission then please do so, but this is the motivation.  And Shiro is led to Nic's lair by angelic intervention.  Had Michael been destined to go early then he would have gone, and his King would have showed him the way.  Shiro also recognizes the difference between Harry and the Knights.

Your path is often a dark one. You do not always have the luxury that we do as Knights of the Cross. We struggle against powers of darkness. We live in black and white, while you must face a world of greys. It is never easy to know the path in such a place.

Now some quotes from Small Favor

“That’s the real reason you didn’t want to hat up and go gunning for the Denarians right at first, the way I wanted to. You were worried I was leading you into a trap.”
“I didn’t lie to you, Harry,” Michael said. “But I’d be lying right now if I didn’t admit that, yes, the thought had crossed my mind.”

He nodded. “Molly became concerned sometime yesterday. I asked her to have a look at you while you were sleeping earlier. I apologize for that, but I didn’t know any other way to be sure that someone had tampered with you.”

He searched my eyes again. “I will,” he whispered, “if you answer one question for me.”
I frowned at him and tilted my head. “Okay.”
He took a deep breath and spoke carefully. “Harry,” he said quietly, “what happened to your blasting rod?”

Edit
Answering the questions did Michael refuse to look for the Denarians for a reason other then what he originally stated,  who spotted the problem and I believe how.

[nadia.skylark]

Harry's tracking spells require something linked to the thing he's tracking, Does he have something that I'm unaware of?

Harry's tracking spells that we've seen on screen do, but both Harry and Luccio make mention of having tried tracking spells on the Denarians and having them fail, so I assume that there are other ways.

When the Denarians aren't looking all demonish, they look just like anyone else.  There are over 8 million people in Chicago.  Exactly what would you have Toot and company look for.

Give them a picture of either Marcone or Nicodemus and say "find that guy." It's how Harry finds Susan in Changes.

Say you had a coin to track, you do understand you would find yourself?

You could wear gloves. (And you could also get a nasty shock when it turns out spellcasting with a coin is as good as touching it . I didn't say this was necessarily a good idea, only that I would like to know what would happen.)

They didn't refuse to look for him,  Michael refused to strike the Denarians without first offering a chance of repentance to them, which is what Harry wants.

Harry asked them at the beginning of the quote to help him find and rescue Marcone. Michael refused by implication when he refused to attack the Denarians--and even if you disagree with that interpretation, he certainly didn't agree to look for Marcone.

I think the argument is:
Shiro did not go to rescue Harry.
Shiro went to die in place of Harry.

That makes sense.

But it makes a strong argument:  when a Knight steps up in that way, their choice to pay that price is the key feature of the event.  Whether there is a "rescue" involved, or another foil-the-bad-guys plan, the Knight's sacrifice is the defining thing.
 
Therefore (goes the argument) that incident has no real bearing on any discussion of knightly-rescuing; that wasn't what the event was about.
 
I'm not convinced the argument is correct; but I observe it to be a very-strong argument, and one not readily susceptible to being refuted.

Refutations: pre-Grave Peril, Michael and Harry had spent at least a week hunting ghosts every night without Michael sacrificing himself, and Michael was able to rescue Luccio's boot camp at the end of Proven Guilty without a sacrifice.

On topic: I don't think they would, no. Michael's argument is ideological; he does not want to risk the Swords in a preemptive strike. You argue that they could have gone after them without the intent to kill; that's what they eventually do. But the stakes were much higher at that point. Not only is there a child in danger, there's the risk of nuclear strike(s).

I have mentioned the stakes issue. But the stakes in Marcone's kidnapping are "a soul plus a lot of bad stuff" and the stakes in Ivy's kidnapping are "a soul plus a lot of worse stuff." According to Skin Game, the soul is supposed to be the important part.

Rescuing Ivy wasn't all that important,  keeping the Archive out of Denarian hands is another matter all together..   

No. Not to the Knights. The Knights' explicit job is saving souls. If they were willing to prioritize preventing the Denarians' acts of mass destruction over that, they wouldn't have refused to touch Cassius after he surrendered his coin.

[Mira]

No. Not to the Knights. The Knights' explicit job is saving souls. If they were willing to prioritize preventing the Denarians' acts of mass destruction over that, they wouldn't have refused to touch Cassius after he surrendered his coin.

No,  once Cassius gave up his coin he became a free mortal once again..  The Knights do not save souls they give souls enthralled by the Fallen of the coins a chance at free will once more...  From the point where he surrenders the coin until his death, what he decides to do with what remains of his life is up to Cassius...  If he chooses to atone and seek redemption, well and good... If he doesn't, well it is his choice and no longer the concern of the Knights.

[nadia.skylark]

No,  once Cassius gave up his coin he became a free mortal once again..

Yes, obviously. What I'm saying is that if the Knights' purpose was to prevent the harm that the Denarians do to others, that wouldn't matter because, per their hypothetical different priorities, stopping the plague curse would be more important.

The Knights do not save souls they give souls enthralled by the Fallen of the coins a chance at free will once more... 

Two points:

One: The Fallen cannot take away free will--if they could, it would be impossible for anyone to give up a coin, because they would not have the free will with which to do so.

Two: Everything I have seen from the Knights in the books, and everything I've seen from Uriel in the boos, indicates that the Knights are, in fact, in the business of saving souls. This is made most clear in Uriel's discussion with Harry in "The Warrior" and in Michael's discussion with Uriel in Skin Game.

From the point where he surrenders the coin until his death, what he decides to do with what remains of his life is up to Cassius...

True, but seemingly irrelevant to the point I was making.

If he chooses to atone and seek redemption, well and good... If he doesn't, well it is his choice and no longer the concern of the Knights.

I think mostly the Knights were just seriously pissed off at Cassius. I'm fairly confident that if A) there wasn't a plague curse immanent; and B) Cassius wasn't being a smug bastard and mocking the Knights by reminding them that he had helped torture one of their own and that there was nothing they could do about it, then one or both of the Knights would have stayed to argue with him and try to convince him to actually redeem himself.

[morriswalters]

No one other than you can save your soul.