Author Topic: Motivation for fixing Little Chicago?  (Read 12944 times)

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Motivation for fixing Little Chicago?
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2019, 11:59:59 AM »
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Thus Pell's Theater.

What? I don't even... I just listed three possibilities that would make it completely unnecessary to use Pell's theater, and this is the response?

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Motivation for fixing Little Chicago?
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2019, 01:31:00 PM »
They could have travelled through the Nevernever, or have been working with someone strong enough to put a portal wherever they liked, or had the time to set up an area specifically to have the correct resonances.
What? I don't even... I just listed three possibilities that would make it completely unnecessary to use Pell's theater, and this is the response?
Pell's Theater is your number 3.  Didn't you think it odd that a little dingy movie house just randomly had the parameters to be a location that ends up being at the front door of Arctis Tor.  It wasn't needed by the fetches unless Jim has made a continuity error.  When Pell is attacked they enter and leave Chicago via the mirrors in the bathroom.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Motivation for fixing Little Chicago?
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2019, 02:14:01 PM »
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Pell's Theater is your number 3.  Didn't you think it odd that a little dingy movie house just randomly had the parameters to be a location that ends up being at the front door of Arctis Tor.  It wasn't needed by the fetches unless Jim has made a continuity error.  When Pell is attacked they enter and leave Chicago via the mirrors in the bathroom.

I just figured that going through mirrors dropped them in random parts of the Nevernever, and they needed Pell's theater to bring Molly to Arctis Tor.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Motivation for fixing Little Chicago?
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2019, 03:19:06 PM »
@kbrizzle
I need to clarify something for myself before we continue.  Exactly when do you think the attack took place?  I've already offered you an explanation. 

I'll clarify.  Bringing Molly to Arctis Tor throws suspicion on Mab.  It makes her look mad.  Which is the narrative that Maeve will sell until she is killed.  Mab is looking for footprints that will lead her to the person who got the attackers in close to Arctis Tor.  She knows Lea was compromised and she suspects others.  Aurora was her first shock, then Lea and finally the attack at Arctis Tor.  She needs to know so she lets it play out at her fortress.  Her one active move, if you believe she was behind it, was to feed Harry information through a source who Harry trusts.  After that she would see it all.  The attacks at the Fool Moon garage and at the Con.  The phages attack on Michael's home, the location of the portal and Maeve's actions.  My guess is that this is the moment when she realizes that Maeve has been compromised. There are others but for this I'll go with this.

Hmm I’d say with the passage of time being heavily manipulated in Faerie, it’s very difficult to nail. I’m fairly certain it happens after Mab takes Lea’s place in DB since she seems to be in relatively good spirits (until the mention of Kemmlerites), & before Harry travels to Arctis Tor to save Molly.  For all we know, it was done in concert with the Outsider attack on the WC facilities in Oregon at the early middle of PG.

If the attack happens during DB, why does Mab send away her troops to the Summer border for nearly a year after the assault? It would make more sense  that the attack happened more recently than that. Also why the Summer border? (Unless Mab has been duped into believing that the next Black Council attack will come from that direction).

At a high-level view, here is what I think likely happened between DB & PG.
The Black Council mounts a complex 3-part campaign to upset the power balance in the supernatural world. The first part of the plan is to neutralize the White Council through a blitzkrieg - hence Luccio talks about how the Ramps broke every rule of war; called up Outsiders, mortal sorcerers & vanilla mercenaries to attack, including going into the hospitals to off the wounded.
This would leave the White Council in a state of shock & temporary paralysis while it recovers from the savagery & unexpectedness of the attack (& its participants). Taking advantage of this, the BC mounts plan number 2 soon after (3 days as you point out) - have one of their own become a necro-god - Cowl.
This would upset the balance of power in supernatural world - there is a newly created god who might’ve become even more powerful than Mab. Plan 3 was to have the necro-god spearhead the assault on Arctis Tor, followed by WC HQ in Edinburgh. Since part 2 failed, I imagine the timeline of part 3 would have to be altered to accommodate this.

Parts 2 & 3 fail because Harry and Mab are able to defeat the BC sorties. If you want mirroring - perhaps Harry in DB eventually triumphing through luck & skill(after getting beat up)  mirrors how Mab is able to rout the attackers in PG. Hell, both their houses get attacked with the thresholds/ wards being breached.

Regarding Maeve bringing Molly to Arctis Tor to make Mab look more crazy/ guilty - knowing what we do about what Molly becomes & the interest Sandra Marling has shown in her, do you really think Maeve would want Molly to be in Mab’s hands at all? It makes more sense to me that Mab had Molly brought to the winter garden to kill her if she had been Nfected or if not, to remove her from the clutches of the BC.

If Maeve has control of Eldest Fetch & free run of Arctis Tor, why didn’t try to free the Nfected Lea?

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Motivation for fixing Little Chicago?
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2019, 03:30:52 PM »
@nadia & morriswalters
Regarding Pell’s Theater opening up to Arctis Tor - this is likely because someone prepared it to be so. If the BC are based in Russia hypothetically, do you really think they would need to come to Chicago to open a Way to Arctis Tor? Surely there are Ways to Arctis Tor from Russia... Also, I don’t see what the point of having the BC use the same entrance would be? It would be an operationally risky move on the part of the BC, especially since they know that Mab is monitoring the city (unless they know she is besieged at Arctis Tor at that time or something).

@g33k
Haha, that’s one I haven’t heard. I think it’s much more likely that Kumori is Kim Delaney from FM. As a fervent environmentalist & dabbler in magic who was killed trying to do something good (contain Harley mcFinn) - I think her viewpoint on ending death would match Kumori’s. As Harry’s former apprentice, she is much more respectful to him than she needs to be (in a way I don’t think Elaine would’ve been).

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Motivation for fixing Little Chicago?
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2019, 05:18:54 PM »
@kbrizzle

I'll show you my thinking.  For this story arc Mab has been under constant attack since Grave Peril.  First Lea is subverted in Grave Peril and then she goes to war with Summer because Aurora has gone mad.  The important point in Dead Beat is the discovery by Mab that Lea is subverted.  At this point she now knows two things without doubt.  Nemesis has infiltrated both Summer and Winter.  This is my reasoning for Winter moving to the border after the attack in Dead Beat.

She knows that Thorned Namshiel led the attack.  What she doesn't know is who is behind it.  If she goes to war with the Reds and Nemesis can manipulate Summer then she can be defeated, since as you note two of her powerful agents are down.  So she turns to the greater possible threat, Summer.  The attack on Arctis Tor was never meant to be anything other than an distraction, designed to keep Mab out of the fray while the Reds and the Black Council move.
 

This will continue to one degree or another until the events of Changes.  And she will use Harry as a stalking horse in the interim.  Something you might give some thought to is why Arctis Tor is empty.  If the attack has just occurred then the forces of Winter should be moving to Arctis Tor as they do when Harry throws Summer fire.  If the attack happened any time before why hasn't Winter cleaned up the mess and why has it been left unguarded by anyone other than the fetches?

As to why the BC would use the theater, you assume that someone on the BC set up the conditions for the portal.  But the one time we have seen that done it was with the coordination of the person on the other side, in Skin Games Hades and Marcone set it up.

Anyway this has been fun.


 


Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Motivation for fixing Little Chicago?
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2019, 06:32:21 PM »
@morriswalters

It has been fun! It’s forced me to really re-examine the premises of my WAGs about PG. The one thing I’ll point out in your argument is that after Aurora (& most of her retinue) have been killed in SK, there is no reason to think that Summer is still  Nfected (unless Maeve has been lying to Mab about it).

Agreed - why Arctis Tor is empty when Harry gets there is a puzzle. If the attack happened a year ago, why does Mab’s stronghold (& the Wellspring) lie open for anyone to enter for such a long period? Or, if the attack happened a few days ago, why haven’t Winter forces come back to protect the Wellspring sooner?

I’m sure we both have our theories & we’ll hopefully find out one way or the other in MM. Perhaps the answer simply lies in the fact that there is a general imbalance in the Fae courts (skewed towards Summer) prior to Harry assuming the WK mantle.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Motivation for fixing Little Chicago?
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2019, 01:27:51 AM »
It's like a murder investigation.  Who has means , motive and opportunity?  Since Harry was keeping LC under wraps before first use, who could have known of it existence in the present?  That list is small.  Maybe Mab and/or the Gatekeeper.  It's never explained implicitly, but Mab has some means of seeing what happens in Chicago.  She reproduces a past event in Chicago, in full animation, in Small Favor. And the Gatekeeper has showed the ability to find Harry wherever he might be.  He does it in Summer Knight and Turncoat.  However the ability to be able to do so removes the need to use LC, since she/they seem to already have a more powerful tool that does the same thing.

Not necessarily. Little Chicago might have been capable of working in some niche way that Rashid's surveillance abilities don't. Or if it was Mab using it to snoop on Maeve to realize she was Nemfected, there are a couple reasons her own means might not have been able to see what she needed.

One, Sidhe power is highly seasonal. Just because she could monitor most of Marcone's kidnapping in the middle of a snowstorm in Small Favor doesn't mean she'd have been able to get a similar level of detail in the summer heat wave that was going on in PG. Two, assuming she was watching Maeve, one Winter queen snooping on another with Winter power might be hard to do unnoticed. Little Chicago might be a lesser spy tool overall that Mab's own, but also harder for Maeve to detect. Or three, Maeve might have a lesser version of Mab's defense against other immortals like Anduriel snooping - another version of why a lesser overall tool might be better for the purpose by way of being made by a mortal.