Author Topic: Mab is Nfected question  (Read 12552 times)

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2019, 08:16:05 PM »
I still don’t think we see even circumstantial evidence that Mab has been Nfected. The only strange thing I can think that she does is to temporarily stop being able to modulate her voice for human consumption (& she does a lot of strange things).

My original point of if Mab is Nfected (even if she is able to contain it), why haven’t the Outsiders won still stands. If Fallen:Host is analogous to Nfection:Host, & Harry’s containment of Lash is the model we are using to describe how Mab is containing the Adversary, then Cold Days would have played out very differently.

In SmF, Nic commands Lash to paralyze Harry so he can kidnap the latter. Lash actually paralyzes Harry on her own in PG when he tries to use Little Chicago when she knows it’s not ready yet (showing that at least for short periods of time, the Fallen can overwhelm their host). In CD, we see that Nemesis is able to disable Cat Sith enough to simply take over (and Cat Sith is a very powerful Fae trying to fight it).

So why does Nfected Maeve need Harry to kill Mab? Nemesis can simply paralyze Mab for a few minutes while Maeve or her retainers kill Mab.

If Mab is too powerful for Nemesis to gain control for even a few seconds, I don’t see how it is much of a threat to Mab at all.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2019, 06:57:03 PM »
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My original point of if Mab is Nfected (even if she is able to contain it), why haven’t the Outsiders won still stands. If Fallen:Host is analogous to Nfection:Host, & Harry’s containment of Lash is the model we are using to describe how Mab is containing the Adversary, then Cold Days would have played out very differently.

In SmF, Nic commands Lash to paralyze Harry so he can kidnap the latter. Lash actually paralyzes Harry on her own in PG when he tries to use Little Chicago when she knows it’s not ready yet (showing that at least for short periods of time, the Fallen can overwhelm their host). In CD, we see that Nemesis is able to disable Cat Sith enough to simply take over (and Cat Sith is a very powerful Fae trying to fight it).

So why does Nfected Maeve need Harry to kill Mab? Nemesis can simply paralyze Mab for a few minutes while Maeve or her retainers kill Mab.

First, I'm not convinced either that Lasciel's shadow could legitimately paralyze Harry or that Nemesis could paralyze Mab. We've seen Lasciel's shadow try to prevent Harry from acting in Proven Guilty, when she tried to stop him from using Little Chicago. And while she did manage to interfere with his effectiveness quite a lot, she did it not by paralyzing him, but by forcing the illusion of pain on him, which he could not fight off while also performing a complicated and dangerous ritual. Furthermore, Harry pointed out that he was perfectly capable of going through the ritual anyway, he would just be less effective, which would result in it blowing up in Harry's face. It would have been much more effective for Lasciel's shadow to paralyze him, if indeed she was capable of doing so.

I believe that the only way Lasciel's shadow could paralyze Harry would be to create an illusion cutting him off from all his senses, including prioproception. That would, indeed, likely have the effect of paralyzing him, but he could break through it easily by invoking the Sight. As for why Nic thought that this would work, I suspect he's just not used to dealing with wizards. The magic-users that he works with seem mostly to be sorcerer-level, and even Tessa probably only became as strong/skilled as she is over centuries or millennia. As such, he probably isn't used to accounting for things like the Sight, since most, if not all, of the magic-users he works with do not use it (I'm not convinced that either Tessa or Thorned Namshiel use the Sight--Tessa because she can probably rely on her Fallen for that kind of thing, and Thorned Namshiel because based on his name the Fallen is in full control there).

To summarize, I believe that Lasciel's shadow cannot simply paralyze Harry, only make him briefly less effective (if she tried it long-term, I believe Harry could block her out, as he has shown that he can do). I believe the same thing applies to Nemesis and Mab. And what do you know, Mab has seemed marginally less effective than I would expect from her. She covers it well, but things like only getting her revenge on the Red Court through something she could not possibly have anticipated and not teaching Harry magic that would make him more effective at carrying out her will (even though she offered to do just that) make me think that something is going on with her, although whether it's fighting Nfection or just being really super busy is up for debate.

Second, Nfected Maeve could have several reasons to try to get Harry to kill an Nfected Mab. One is that turning Mab's own weapon against her would be beating her at her own game, which is what Maeve explicitly is trying to do. Second is that if Harry weakens Mab in his attempt to kill her, it could give Nemesis a stronger hold. Third is that Harry attacking Mab would make it harder for Mab to interfere in her enemies' plans until she's dealt with the problem. Fourth is that convincing Harry to kill Mab would also convince Harry not to kill Maeve. Fifth is that Maeve is making this attempt in front of Lily, so she needs to keep up the charade of "Mab is Nfected and untrustworthy" since this appears to me to be one of the reasons why Lily is working with her. Sixth is that Harry is the Warden of Demonreach, so either getting him killed by convincing him to attack Mab or even just keeping him busy trying to figure out if it is necessary, and if so how to do it, would prevent or limit his ability to interfere with Maeve's plan to blow up his island.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2019, 09:19:06 PM »
@nadia
So let’s say you’re right & Lash couldn’t paralyze Harry but could only incapacitate him for a few moments and/or make him significantly less effective in the short-term. Wouldn’t this be just the opening Maeve needs to take out Mab? Maeve & her retainers (or she could call in the Walkers to help) are powerful enough that a temporarily weakened Mab is all they need to remove her (like a few minutes). Killing Mab would put Nfected Maeve on the throne, giving Nemesis exactly what it wants regardless of the other advantages you’ve listed.

Also remember how the Nfection deals with Cat Sith - it takes him out in seconds. Remember Rasmussen from DM who had been enslaved by his Fallen. Just because it didn’t work on Harry doesn’t mean Harry/Lash is an accurate model here - in fact JB goes out of his way to show how unusual the Harry/Lash situation is. As an immortal without much in the way of free-will, I’m not sure how well Mab would be able to oppose Nemesis.

Regarding Mab
Perhaps she is less effective from books 4-14 because she is operating without a Winter Knight (meaning her main tool for meddling in the mortal world is nonexistent) & without her top 2 lieutenants - Lea & Maeve. It also didn’t help that Nemesis’ latest salvo came from an angle she didn’t see - Aurora. That caused a massive chain reaction on the Summer side as well, leaving the Courts out of balance (Lily should never have become Lady).

However by the end of those 10 years, she got a Starborn as Winter Knight, healed Lea & replaced her old, neglecting her duties for 150 years Lady with one who is very capable instead. On the Summer side, Titania has calmed down somewhat, Fix has been trained to become an effective Knight & Sarissa (who has the right training) becomes Lady.

All the beings/ powers that screwed with her or her Accords have gotten a major reckoning - the Reds were obliterated in a battle that was fought by her Knight, Lady & #2 (even though Molly didn’t do much, the outside world will not see it as such). The Denarians who screwed with her have been left ruined or destroyed. It does not matter how much of this was explicitly planned by Mab - it happened because of how she had well she had prepared her resources/ allies/ forces (explained in her chess metaphor to Harry at the end of CD).

Regarding Nic
I don’t think that the Sight is restricted to those with White Council ability - I mean I’m not sure if Beckitt or Anna Ashe were able to use it, but I’m sure people at Snakeboy’s level are.

Nic could also have been wrong about Lash being able to paralyze Harry because he is a Starborn - he has an unusually strong sense of self & is stubborn to point of mule-headedness (Soulfire). We don’t know if that was wrong though since Lash had died - remember that no one knows of a mortal who has been able to resist a Shadow for as long as Harry did.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 09:36:26 PM by kbrizzle »

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2019, 10:15:32 PM »
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So let’s say you’re right & Lash couldn’t paralyze Harry but could only incapacitate him for a few moments and/or make him significantly less effective in the short-term. Wouldn’t this be just the opening Maeve needs to take out Mab? Maeve & her retainers (or she could call in the Walkers to help) are powerful enough that a temporarily weakened Mab is all they need to remove her (like a few minutes). Killing Mab would put Nfected Maeve on the throne, giving Nemesis exactly what it wants regardless of the other advantages you’ve listed.

It depends on how weakened she was. Mab is stronger than Maeve by an order of magnitude--if Maeve is power level 10 then Mab is power level 100. Even if Nemesis can cut Mab's strength in half, she's still way stronger than Maeve. And even if Maeve's allies can make up the difference, Mab can call on all of Winter given half a chance, and unless Nemesis can suppress something on the order of 90% of Mab's power, she's going to get that chance.

Mind you, this might be plan B, or plan C, D, or E, but it makes much more sense for plan A to be: let's throw someone we already want dead at Mab.

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Also remember how the Nfection deals with Cat Sith - it takes him out in seconds. Remember Rasmussen from DM who had been enslaved by his Fallen. Just because it didn’t work on Harry doesn’t mean Harry/Lash is an accurate model here - in fact JB goes out of his way to show how unusual the Harry/Lash situation is. As an immortal without much in the way of free-will, I’m not sure how well Mab would be able to oppose Nemesis.

Clearly Nemesis can be opposed by non-free willed beings, because Lea did so. And Mab seems to be strong-willed enough to be the Sidhe equivalent of Harry in that department. We don't know how from people he doesn't like (as opposed to maliciously subverting them on general principle). He may do things like bring Harry a warm coke, but he doesn't do things like delivering the coke via dumping it on Harry's head. This doesn't mean he isn't strong-willed--Harry will (usually) obey orders from the White Council, even if he doesn't like them much--but it's not a point in favor of him being particularly Nemesis-resistant, either. Mab, on the other hand, is Mab. That is to say, even when compromise would be useful to her, she doesn't use it. She does things like challenge Harry to fight her on Demonreach and slam his head into an elevator wall, even though Harry would be much more cooperative if she refrained from doing so and explained things, even if that explanation was just "I know I can't force you to act against your principles, and I'm not trying," rather than anything concrete. This, I feel, demonstrates the kind of stubbornness that would seem necessary to fighting off something like Nemesis.

Also note that I'm not claiming that Mab has had to fight off Nemesis for years alone--only long enough for someone like Mother Winter to give her some help with that.

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Perhaps she is less effective from books 4-14 because she is operating without a Winter Knight (meaning her main tool for meddling in the mortal world is nonexistent) & without her top 2 lieutenants - Lea & Maeve. It also didn’t help that Nemesis’ latest salvo came from an angle she didn’t see - Aurora. That caused a massive chain reaction on the Summer side as well, leaving the Courts out of balance (Lily should never have become Lady).

However by the end of those 10 years, she got a Starborn as Winter Knight, healed Lea & replaced her old, neglecting her duties for 150 years Lady with one who is very capable instead. On the Summer side, Titania has calmed down somewhat, Fix has been trained to become an effective Knight & Sarissa (who has the right training) becomes Lady.

All the beings/ powers that screwed with her or her Accords have gotten a major reckoning - the Reds were obliterated in a battle that was fought by her Knight, Lady & #2 (even though Molly didn’t do much, the outside world will not see it as such). The Denarians who screwed with her have been left ruined or destroyed. It does not matter how much of this was explicitly planned by Mab - it happened because of how she had well she had prepared her resources/ allies/ forces (explained in her chess metaphor to Harry at the end of CD).

I just feel like Mab has been using too much gambit roulette and not enough batman gambits, which would seem more her style. There could be many reasons for this, and one of them is Nemesis.

In particular, her handling of Harry is...odd. She probably couldn't ever get Harry to like her, but the way she handles him seems to actively encourage him to want her dead. So...either Mab is slipping, possibly from Nfection; or she wants Harry to kill her, probably because she's Nfected; or she's massively misreading Harry, probably by expecting him to be rational enough not to kill her no matter how much he wants to, which is a possibility.

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I don’t think that the Sight is restricted to those with White Council ability - I mean I’m not sure if Beckitt or Anna Ashe were able to use it, but I’m sure people at Snakeboy’s level are.

The RPG says that it's a wizard-power, not a sorcerer one. It's unclear whether Denarian sorcerers would have it--on the one hand, the Fallen offer far more training than sorcerers usually get, but on the other, I feel like the Fallen could do something similar for their hosts rather than teaching them, and they have reason to want their hosts to remain dependent on them.

I think that none of the Denarians have the Sight, because if they did then they would have used it to see through Ivy's veil at the Shedd, and they manifestly didn't do so.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 04:42:02 AM by nadia.skylark »

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2019, 04:32:18 AM »
@nadia
I don’t think Maeve actually thought that the plan to get Harry to off Mab was actually going to work. Mab recruited Harry & as Sarissa says, Mab has something on everybody (Harry’s broken back). Not to mention that Mab has been extremely interested in Harry for around a decade & has been actively steering him into fights he needs to fight. Maeve’s interactions with Harry have always been pointlessly unpleasant. Harry probably dislikes Maeve more than he does Mab since he at least respects the latter. I think Maeve says it to confuse Harry for long enough for her to attack Demonreach.

Was Lea really able to fight it off? All we know is that Mab was able to take the athame as well as Harry’s debt to her & imprison her. Once she was imprisoned, she was able to resist. I don’t recall any evidence that Lea voluntarily went to Mab & asked her for help.

I also see no evidence that Mab is as strong-willed as Harry. I think one of the reasons Harry wields Soulfire is because he is unique in this aspect. While I am sure Mab is quite strong willed herself, I’m not sure if it is enough to contain Nemesis to the extent you seem to think.

Her behavior towards Harry is geared toward getting him used to accepting her orders in a crude & intelligent way - the way Harry operates. She is also an absolute monarch & wants to remind Harry that is hers now. As she reminds him at the end of CD when he is furiously asking questions about her actions. “I am not YOUR Knight, you are MINE”. She is old thousand-plus years old, so her ideas of how her retinue should behave & be punished are somewhat archaic.

I don’t think she is misreading Harry at all. Harry has preconceived notions that Mab is wicked. Over time, as he gets more intertwined in her plans, he begins to respect her. Because of what she is (Fae), he can never trust her - Lea burned him too badly for that (on purpose perhaps?). Instead, she deals with him the way one does with an intelligent blunt instrument - crudely & without micromanagement. No one else in the books is able to consistently use/ manipulate Harry to achieve their own purposes as much as Mab.

You’re probably right about the Sight thing as I have never played the RPG. Although I’m pretty certain Ivy could veil herself even from the Sight - I’m sure Tessa would’ve been using her’s while looking for her in the Aquarium.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 04:38:59 AM by kbrizzle »

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2019, 05:02:12 AM »
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I don’t think Maeve actually thought that the plan to get Harry to off Mab was actually going to work. Mab recruited Harry & as Sarissa says, Mab has something on everybody (Harry’s broken back). Not to mention that Mab has been extremely interested in Harry for around a decade & has been actively steering him into fights he needs to fight. Maeve’s interactions with Harry have always been pointlessly unpleasant. Harry probably dislikes Maeve more than he does Mab since he at least respects the latter. I think Maeve says it to confuse Harry for long enough for her to attack Demonreach.

Fair enough.

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Was Lea really able to fight it off? All we know is that Mab was able to take the athame as well as Harry’s debt to her & imprison her. Once she was imprisoned, she was able to resist. I don’t recall any evidence that Lea voluntarily went to Mab & asked her for help.

I tend to think she could. She was certainly still helping Harry to stop Aurora after she got the Athame, and in Changes she said that shame drove her to seek her queen's aid, which certainly sounds like she asked Mab for help.

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I also see no evidence that Mab is as strong-willed as Harry. I think one of the reasons Harry wields Soulfire is because he is unique in this aspect. While I am sure Mab is quite strong willed herself, I’m not sure if it is enough to contain Nemesis to the extent you seem to think.

Oh, I don't think she's as strong-willed as Harry. She could never do something like turning Nemesis to her side. But I do think she's in the same league as Harry, and that she could hold onto control long enough to bring the problem to Rashid or Mother Winter's attention, at which point they help her lock Nemesis away inside her mind.

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Her behavior towards Harry is geared toward getting him used to accepting her orders in a crude & intelligent way - the way Harry operates. She is also an absolute monarch & wants to remind Harry that is hers now. As she reminds him at the end of CD when he is furiously asking questions about her actions. “I am not YOUR Knight, you are MINE”. She is old thousand-plus years old, so her ideas of how her retinue should behave & be punished are somewhat archaic.

I don’t think she is misreading Harry at all. Harry has preconceived notions that Mab is wicked. Over time, as he gets more intertwined in her plans, he begins to respect her. Because of what she is (Fae), he can never trust her - Lea burned him too badly for that (on purpose perhaps?). Instead, she deals with him the way one does with an intelligent blunt instrument - crudely & without micromanagement. No one else in the books is able to consistently use/ manipulate Harry to achieve their own purposes as much as Mab.

I guess I just expect her to be a better manipulator than she's shown herself to be with Harry. I mean, if I were Mab, here's what I would do:

1) I would never punish Harry for the way he spoke to me in private. It's not going to stop him being insulting, and it will make him hate me/Mab more. Also, it seems stupid to hurt him for being himself.
2) When I was helping him recover from being dead, in addition to trying to kill him every day, I would offer him some level of magical instruction to bring him up to the level he was at in Changes, only without needing his equipment.
3) I would work on getting him in shape quicker, so that he could be deployed against the Fomor ASAP. This would serve two purposes: it would damage and disrupt my/Mab's enemies, and it would be something that Harry would want to do anyway.
4) When the Fomor/Svaralf treaty problem came up, I would send Harry to fix the problem, telling him that his brother was being held there.
5) When dealing with the problem of Cold Case, I'd send Harry to rescue the kids, and just have someone else come by to take them away next week.

Essentially, if Mab wants Harry on her side, I think she should stop hurting him gratuitously, be marginally helpful, and give him jobs he wants to do. This is textbook manipulation--if you want someone to work for you, give them reasons why they want to and try to avoid giving them reasons to hate you. Some things that would help, Mab cannot do. She cannot be straightforward and explain things clearly to Harry. She cannot suddenly start being nice. She cannot start giving help away for free to Harry's allies. But there are things, as I've pointed out above, that she can do, and isn't. That's a problem if we're supposed to see her as a master manipulator, as we clearly are. When it comes to Harry, she's just not acting like one.

Maybe she has reason. But I haven't seen any in the books, so Nfection seems as good a reason as any other.

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2019, 03:11:06 PM »
I also see no evidence that Mab is as strong-willed as Harry. I think one of the reasons Harry wields Soulfire is because he is unique in this aspect. While I am sure Mab is quite strong willed herself, I’m not sure if it is enough to contain Nemesis to the extent you seem to think.

Despite lacking free-will, Vadderung displays to Harry that he is strong enough to paralyze Harry with his will alone. Mab is stronger than Vadderung. There is very good reason to believe Mab could withstand Nemfection far better than Cat Sith and Leah, especially if Mab knew she would become Nfected when she saved Leah and had time to prepare defenses.

Ultimately, as demonstrated by Harry and Mother Winter, humans have free-will that is stronger than anything the supernatural entities can muster but as also demonstrated by Harry and Mother Winter (and Vadderung and the Red King),  a human has to learn how to use free-will or the human will be weaker.

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2019, 03:31:05 PM »
1) I would never punish Harry for the way he spoke to me in private. It's not going to stop him being insulting, and it will make him hate me/Mab more. Also, it seems stupid to hurt him for being himself.

Probably, but Mab is confined by her nature and can only withstand so much insult before her pride compels her to act. If Harry, with free will, can't stop himself from being insulting most of the time, why would Mab, who lacks free will, be able to stop herself from taking revenge for insults?

2) When I was helping him recover from being dead, in addition to trying to kill him every day, I would offer him some level of magical instruction to bring him up to the level he was at in Changes, only without needing his equipment.

She can't. She can't give him instruction without also demanding something in turn (and even if she could, she knows Harry would never accept). Trying to kill him is a loophole, she isn't giving him anything but if he survives, he gets stronger.

3) I would work on getting him in shape quicker, so that he could be deployed against the Fomor ASAP. This would serve two purposes: it would damage and disrupt my/Mab's enemies, and it would be something that Harry would want to do anyway.

How is she going to do that? Again, there are limits on what she can do to help him and any attempt to help him would be met by resistance and suspicion that would likely slow Harry's progress, not hasten it.

4) When the Fomor/Svaralf treaty problem came up, I would send Harry to fix the problem, telling him that his brother was being held there.

Wasn't this storyline while Harry was a ghost or at least still recovering?


5) When dealing with the problem of Cold Case, I'd send Harry to rescue the kids, and just have someone else come by to take them away next week.

And miss a perfectly good training opportunity for Molly? Also, Harry was stuck on Demonreach because of Bonnie at this time.

But there are things, as I've pointed out above, that she can do, and isn't. That's a problem if we're supposed to see her as a master manipulator, as we clearly are. When it comes to Harry, she's just not acting like one.

Maybe she has reason. But I haven't seen any in the books, so Nfection seems as good a reason as any other.

1. I think you overstate what Mab can do. She can't just help Harry for free. She couldn't even just help Lea for free, and Lea is full fairy.
2. You are assuming Mab wants Harry to like her. Mab wants Harry to kill her eventually. She isn't trying to manipulate him into a long-term ally, she is trying to manipulate him into a short-term tool that will kill her in the long-term.
3. She seems like a pretty good manipulator to me. Summer Knight, Small Favor, Changes, Cold Days, Skin Game, she hasn't once failed to get what she really wants from Harry. Take a look at the end of Cold Days, after telling Harry he wouldn't survive long enough to pull the trigger (because her nature compelled her to do so) she explained to Harry reasons that he would accept to persuade him not to try. She knows exactly how to get what she wants from Harry, so if she isn't using optimum-manipulation strategy at all times, it is either because she is literally incapable of doing certain things, or she has a long-term agenda that wouldn't be served by strategies that appear at first glance to be superior.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2019, 05:55:14 PM »
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Probably, but Mab is confined by her nature and can only withstand so much insult before her pride compels her to act. If Harry, with free will, can't stop himself from being insulting most of the time, why would Mab, who lacks free will, be able to stop herself from taking revenge for insults?

Fair enough.

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She can't. She can't give him instruction without also demanding something in turn (and even if she could, she knows Harry would never accept). Trying to kill him is a loophole, she isn't giving him anything but if he survives, he gets stronger.

Not true. She offered him magical instruction as part of the Winter Knight package in Small Favor.

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How is she going to do that? Again, there are limits on what she can do to help him and any attempt to help him would be met by resistance and suspicion that would likely slow Harry's progress, not hasten it.

She's going to say: "Just because you dislike me doesn't mean that we don't have common enemies. Just as I was willing to allow the White Council to use my Ways against the Red Court, I am willing to allow you to go about causing general havoc to the Fomor in your own way, because it suits my purpose. Are you really willing to abandon your friends and allies to attack because of your distrust for me? I thought not."

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Wasn't this storyline while Harry was a ghost or at least still recovering?

Recovering, and that's why I said she should work on getting him to recover faster. I don't believe that she had no control over the speed of his recovery, because he was recovered just in time to kill Maeve--the timing's just too precise to be coincidence.

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And miss a perfectly good training opportunity for Molly? Also, Harry was stuck on Demonreach because of Bonnie at this time.

Maybe, but given that Maeve had a 150-year backlog, I feel like Molly probably had plenty of training opportunities, and saving a bunch of innocent kids is just perfect for getting Harry to work with you. And it only took place a few days after Cold Days, so I'm pretty sure Harry could still leave the island, even if there was some risk.

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I think you overstate what Mab can do. She can't just help Harry for free. She couldn't even just help Lea for free, and Lea is full fairy.

And I think you understate what Mab could do in exchange for Harry being her Knight and taking her orders.

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You are assuming Mab wants Harry to like her. Mab wants Harry to kill her eventually. She isn't trying to manipulate him into a long-term ally, she is trying to manipulate him into a short-term tool that will kill her in the long-term.

I am not assuming that Mab wants Harry to like her at all. I am, in fact, assuming that Mab wants to kill herself to prevent Nemesis from taking over, and that having a starborn on hand to help with that would be really useful. What I am claiming is that if Mab did not have reason to kill herself (ie was Nemesis infected) then she is being sloppy (because she is Nemesis infected). It's a Morton's fork argument--whatever path you chose, you end up at the same place.

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She seems like a pretty good manipulator to me. Summer Knight, Small Favor, Changes, Cold Days, Skin Game, she hasn't once failed to get what she really wants from Harry. Take a look at the end of Cold Days, after telling Harry he wouldn't survive long enough to pull the trigger (because her nature compelled her to do so) she explained to Harry reasons that he would accept to persuade him not to try.

She may always get what she wants in the short term from Harry, but she also never fails to piss Harry off and make him hate her more. Personally, unless she is aiming to get Harry to kill her, this seems like poor long-term planning. Remember, Harry is not an astonishingly rational person. He may have logical reasons not to kill Mab, but there's a point beyond which that's not going to stop him.

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She knows exactly how to get what she wants from Harry, so if she isn't using optimum-manipulation strategy at all times, it is either because she is literally incapable of doing certain things, or she has a long-term agenda that wouldn't be served by strategies that appear at first glance to be superior.

If she knows exactly how to get what she wants from Harry, then something is off. I can't believe that is isn't important to have a Knight that's loyal to Winter's interests, and she's not getting that. She is, in fact, encouraging Harry to fight her at every turn, and setting herself up to have to do the work of strong-arming him into doing every job she wants him to be involved in. Now, it's entirely possible that there's a pressing reason why having Harry fight her so consistently is important (ie she needs him to kill her to prevent Nemesis from taking over), but if that's not her aim, then she is messing up.

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2019, 06:45:58 PM »
Not true. She offered him magical instruction as part of the Winter Knight package in Small Favor.

And Harry rejected that offer. Did he request instruction in his counter-offer in Changes? If not, it isn't part of the deal.

She's going to say: "Just because you dislike me doesn't mean that we don't have common enemies. Just as I was willing to allow the White Council to use my Ways against the Red Court, I am willing to allow you to go about causing general havoc to the Fomor in your own way, because it suits my purpose. Are you really willing to abandon your friends and allies to attack because of your distrust for me? I thought not."

A motivational speech is going to get Harry back into shape quicker? I don't think Harry was being a couch-potato. And if you motivate Harry to push himself too hard, that would delay his recovery.

Recovering, and that's why I said she should work on getting him to recover faster. I don't believe that she had no control over the speed of his recovery, because he was recovered just in time to kill Maeve--the timing's just too precise to be coincidence.

You are right. Uriel put Harry back into his body with just enough time for him to recover to stop Maeve, and Mab pushed Harry to the limits to make sure he recovered in time by trying to kill him daily. A motivational speech was not going make Harry recover weeks sooner.

Maybe, but given that Maeve had a 150-year backlog, I feel like Molly probably had plenty of training opportunities, and saving a bunch of innocent kids is just perfect for getting Harry to work with you. And it only took place a few days after Cold Days, so I'm pretty sure Harry could still leave the island, even if there was some risk.

Mab also wanted Molly to run into Ramirez. That was a double training opportunity.

I am not assuming that Mab wants Harry to like her at all. I am, in fact, assuming that Mab wants to kill herself to prevent Nemesis from taking over, and that having a starborn on hand to help with that would be really useful. What I am claiming is that if Mab did not have reason to kill herself (ie was Nemesis infected) then she is being sloppy (because she is Nemesis infected). It's a Morton's fork argument--whatever path you chose, you end up at the same place.

Oh. It appears we are in agreement that Mab wants Harry to dislike her. I probably should have picked up on that since that is exactly what you said in the last sentence of your prior post. Sorry.


Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2019, 07:31:05 PM »
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And Harry rejected that offer. Did he request instruction in his counter-offer in Changes? If not, it isn't part of the deal.

He bargained for the power to defeat the Red Court. Knowledge is power. No one said he'd lose that power after the Red Court was defeated, or that Mab couldn't give him that power after the Red Court was defeated. Mab therefore has the leeway to train him to the level he was at during Changes, only without having to achieve that level with items, based on his bargain to become the Winter Knight.

Also, there is a degree of reciprocal obligation between the Queens and their Knight which training might fall under, but we can't say one way or the other based on the text.

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A motivational speech is going to get Harry back into shape quicker? I don't think Harry was being a couch-potato. And if you motivate Harry to push himself too hard, that would delay his recovery.

You are right. Uriel put Harry back into his body with just enough time for him to recover to stop Maeve, and Mab pushed Harry to the limits to make sure he recovered in time by trying to kill him daily. A motivational speech was not going make Harry recover weeks sooner.

Sorry, I was being unclear here. A motivational speech would stop Harry from objecting to being sent after fomor. To get him in shape faster, Mab would have to heal him (it's stated in Cold Days that part of how the Winter Knight mantel works is that it doesn't heal it's bearer, just holds them together until the Queen can heal them--which implies that Mab has the ability to heal Harry) or bend time (which, in the heart of her domain, shouldn't be a ridiculously huge deal, especially just in a couple of rooms).

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Mab also wanted Molly to run into Ramirez. That was a double training opportunity.

Fair enough.

I still think Mab should send him on a mission to rescue kids or something, though. (Or at least, if she wants him to hate her less she should. Since she does not want that, it makes sense that she never sends Harry on missions he'd be happy about.)

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2019, 08:39:38 PM »
I think Mab could care less if anyone likes her.  She cares that her allies are powerful and willing to do the work that needs to be done.

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2019, 11:36:53 AM »
  ... I still think Mab should send him on a mission to rescue kids or something, though...

Mab wants Harry stronger, harder.  He's already too soft, too weak, too ruled by his emotions.  Feel-good missions are about as likely as Harry winning the lottery.
 

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2019, 03:02:06 PM »
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I think Mab could care less if anyone likes her.  She cares that her allies are powerful and willing to do the work that needs to be done.

The problem is that for Harry, "willing to do the work that [someone tells him] needs to be done," correlates pretty strongly with how much he likes the person telling him. If the Merlin tells Harry that "A" needs to be done, he's way more likely to decide that, no, actually "B" needs to be done than if Michael tells him that "A" needs to be done.

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Mab wants Harry stronger, harder.  He's already too soft, too weak, too ruled by his emotions.  Feel-good missions are about as likely as Harry winning the lottery.

Stronger and harder, I'd agree with. Ruled less by his emotions, maybe not so much. After all, the only reason he became the Winter Knight is because of how much he is ruled by his emotions. And Harry is at his strongest and hardest while protecting/avenging either innocents or those he cares about--if Mab wants him to be more like that, then a good first step would be throwing him into situations where he's naturally inclined to be on a more regular basis.

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is Nfected question
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2019, 05:43:43 PM »
Stronger and harder, I'd agree with. Ruled less by his emotions, maybe not so much. After all, the only reason he became the Winter Knight is because of how much he is ruled by his emotions.

Yes; a poor choice of words on my part!

Say rather, Harry is too often softened by his emotions.  He chooses softer approaches, is gentler, kinder... warmer.  Not what Mab wants in her Winter Knight.