Mab is Nfected question

[morriswalters]

We also have WoJ that Mab considers the defense of the Outer Gates to be the most important thing in her life. I believe Jim says that Mab would sacrifice herself, every human & Fae if she thought it would win her the war against the Outsiders. In Cold Days, she kills her daughter because she stands in the way of that goal.

If Mab knew she were Nfected, she would remove herself immediately, whether or not Molly is fit to be Queen. I suppose it’s possible that she doesn’t know, but as others have pointed out, what would be the point of that? It’s been played out

Well, no.  Murphy kills her daughter.  Had Mab zapped her when she was called, Molly never would have become the Winter Lady, Sarissa would have.  Mab couldn't, this is explicit in the text.

However that doesn't make Mab infected.  She more than anybody has reason to fear just that and has an ally whose express purpose is to prevent just that kind of problem.  The Gatekeeper. 

[kbrizzle]

I think she'd weigh the risks. If she were certain that she could hold out for, for example, 5 years, then I'd think she'd stick around for 4 to make sure things transitioned well and that she'd wrapped up any unfinished business that might cause trouble for her successor (like paying off old debts to inconvenient people).

Would she really be able to quantify the length of time she could hold out? Like the Senior Council going through every little decision they’d made over the last few years after finding out that Peabody has been drugging the ink (perhaps a series of subtle, gentle nudges into making decisions advantageous to the Black council instead of the WC), I don’t think Mab would be able to trust herself if she knew she were Nfected.

Well, no.  Murphy kills her daughter.  Had Mab zapped her when she was called, Molly never would have become the Winter Lady, Sarissa would have.  Mab couldn't, this is explicit in the text.

However that doesn't make Mab infected.  She more than anybody has reason to fear just that and has an ally whose express purpose is to prevent just that kind of problem.  The Gatekeeper. 

Good point about the Gatekeeper & his good relations with Mab. Although I disagree about the Murphy bit - Mab expressly orders Harry to kill Maeve - just because she couldn’t bring herself to do it doesn’t mean she didn’t arrange for it to happen. While Murphy pulls the trigger, it is Mab who breaks the ice enough for the former to break free & shoot Maeve.

[nadia.skylark]

Would she really be able to quantify the length of time she could hold out? Like the Senior Council going through every little decision they’d made over the last few years after finding out that Peabody has been drugging the ink (perhaps a series of subtle, gentle nudges into making decisions advantageous to the Black council instead of the WC), I don’t think Mab would be able to trust herself if she knew she were Nfected.

I think it's a somewhat different situation. The Senior Council didn't know what was happening until after the fact, and therefore had no chance to defend against it. If Mab knew that she was Nfected from the time it happened, I believe that between her and the Gatekeeper she could put up shields around the part of Nemesis in her, and between her and the Gatekeeper they could tell when and at what rate they were eroding.

It's not quite the same situation, but Harry managed to put up shields to mostly block out Lasciel's shadow that held for a time, and the power differential between Harry and Lasciel is slanted way more against Harry than the power differential between Mab and Nemesis.

For that matter, having both other queens of winter Nfected seems like the kind of thing that would let Mother Winter interfere at least obliquely, so she might have given Mab/arranged for Mab to get a shield that would last X amount of time and told her that she had to handle the Maeve problem before then.

[Cozarkian]

I don't agree that it added nothing to the story at all: it was a theory that clearly originated from Maeve, and demonstrates an action that Maeve is taking to undermine Mab. Its place in the story isn't a random worry: it's deliberate malfeasance on the part of an enemy.

Plausible v. necessary. It is a plausible story line for Maeve to accuse Mab and for Harry to investigate, but it wasn't necessary as a plot device to drive Harry's actions in CD. It may just be filler story for entertainment purposes, but it may also have been misdirection.

We also have WoJ that Mab considers the defense of the Outer Gates to be the most important thing in her life. I believe Jim says that Mab would sacrifice herself, every human & Fae if she thought it would win her the war against the Outsiders. In Cold Days, she kills her daughter because she stands in the way of that goal.

If Mab knew she were Nfected, she would remove herself immediately, whether or not Molly is fit to be Queen. I suppose it’s possible that she doesn’t know, but as others have pointed out, what would be the point of that? It’s been played out

I disagree 100%. If Mab knew she were Nfected, she would remove herself when the risk that Nemesis would be able to corrupt her exceeds the risk that Molly's inexperience would lead to a serious blunder. Mab probably knows to the day, hour, minute and second how long she can withstand Nemesis and she won't act to remove herself earlier than necessary.

[nadia.skylark]

I disagree 100%. If Mab knew she were Nfected, she would remove herself when the risk that Nemesis would be able to corrupt her exceeds the risk that Molly's inexperience would lead to a serious blunder. Mab probably knows to the day, hour, minute and second how long she can withstand Nemesis and she won't act to remove herself earlier than necessary.

This. Rashid even mentions in Cold Days that a reorganization at the Outer Gates, such as that caused by Mab's death, would be a serious problem at present.

[morriswalters]

Would she really be able to quantify the length of time she could hold out? Like the Senior Council going through every little decision they’d made over the last few years after finding out that Peabody has been drugging the ink (perhaps a series of subtle, gentle nudges into making decisions advantageous to the Black council instead of the WC), I don’t think Mab would be able to trust herself if she knew she were Nfected.
Good point about the Gatekeeper & his good relations with Mab. Although I disagree about the Murphy bit - Mab expressly orders Harry to kill Maeve - just because she couldn’t bring herself to do it doesn’t mean she didn’t arrange for it to happen. While Murphy pulls the trigger, it is Mab who breaks the ice enough for the former to break free & shoot Maeve.

Yes, but the point was had she taken direct action rather than pawning it off on subordinates things would have turned out better.  So much for Mab as a rationalist.

Plausible v. necessary. It is a plausible story line for Maeve to accuse Mab and for Harry to investigate, but it wasn't necessary as a plot device to drive Harry's actions in CD. It may just be filler story for entertainment purposes, but it may also have been misdirection.

It hits the notes it needs to hit to supply motivation to see the Mother's and Titania and to learn the nature of the Outer Gates.  Jim evidently had a list and he hit all the items on it to set up the new plot line.  The difference is between Maeve the Wicked Winter Faerie and Maeve the instrument of the Adversary.

[Kindler]

If Mab was able to "cure" Lea of Nemesis infection, why wouldn't Mother Winter be able to "cure" Mab? Between Mab and Mother Winter, the process shouldn't take overly long (at least not as long as it did for Lea), so... what? I mean, if she were infected, I doubt it happened any later than Small Favor, when we see her using a malk as a mouthpiece for the first time.

[Cozarkian]

If Mab was able to "cure" Lea of Nemesis infection, why wouldn't Mother Winter be able to "cure" Mab? Between Mab and Mother Winter, the process shouldn't take overly long (at least not as long as it did for Lea), so... what? I mean, if she were infected, I doubt it happened any later than Small Favor, when we see her using a malk as a mouthpiece for the first time.

Good thought, but there could be a few explanations.

1. Leah was absent from DM, BR and DB and not done healing as of PG. That's a period of 4 years. Even if Mother Winter could heal Mab in half the time (and I don't see any reason why it would take less time), 2 years is a very long time to not have Winter.

2. It's possible that in order to cure Leah, Mab had to take the Nemfection into herself, which is how Mab became Nemfected. It's possible that the role of the Queen makes it appropriate for Mab to take that burden on herself (in exchange for getting Harry's obligation) while the role of Mother Winter makes it inappropriate for her to take the burden from Mab. It would also explain why Mab couldn't cure Maeve (she couldn't take the Nemfection when she was already infected). 

[Avernite]

Good thought, but there could be a few explanations.

1. Leah was absent from DM, BR and DB and not done healing as of PG. That's a period of 4 years. Even if Mother Winter could heal Mab in half the time (and I don't see any reason why it would take less time), 2 years is a very long time to not have Winter.

2. It's possible that in order to cure Leah, Mab had to take the Nemfection into herself, which is how Mab became Nemfected. It's possible that the role of the Queen makes it appropriate for Mab to take that burden on herself (in exchange for getting Harry's obligation) while the role of Mother Winter makes it inappropriate for her to take the burden from Mab. It would also explain why Mab couldn't cure Maeve (she couldn't take the Nemfection when she was already infected).

I thought Maeve being uncurable was explained in the books as 'Maeve has to WANT to be cured' - which she did not, while Lea did want to be cured.

[Cozarkian]

That's the obvious explanation, but I don't think it was spelled out in the book. If I recall, Man simply said by the time she learned of Maeve's condition it was too late.

[nadia.skylark]

That's the obvious explanation, but I don't think it was spelled out in the book. If I recall, Man simply said by the time she learned of Maeve's condition it was too late.

I'm pretty sure that it was said, but not by anyone who couldn't plausibly be wrong. After all, Mab would hardly want to advertise the true cost of curing someone of Nfection if it required Nfecting her.

[morriswalters]

That's the obvious explanation, but I don't think it was spelled out in the book. If I recall, Man simply said by the time she learned of Maeve's condition it was too late.

In Cold Days, on Demonreach, Sarissa begs Maeve to get help with the infection as Lea did.  Sarissa tells her that Mab's power alone isn't enough to heal her, that she must want to be healed.  In the aftermath, when it's over, Mab tells Harry that by the time she found that Lea had been infected, that Lea had already passed the infection to Maeve.

[Kindler]

1. Leah was absent from DM, BR and DB and not done healing as of PG. That's a period of 4 years. Even if Mother Winter could heal Mab in half the time (and I don't see any reason why it would take less time), 2 years is a very long time to not have Winter.

That's really what I meant about pointing out Small Favor as the latest timing; it was before the Outsiders began their press against the Gates, and there should have been enough time to do it. Mother Winter or Lea (assuming she's cured around Small Favor; I get the feeling she is, at least by the time between books) or both could have maintained order long enough. And if Mab is as good at suppressing Nemesis as she'd have to be in order to behave as composed as she has been, I seriously doubt it would take years to address the problem. Mother Winter was able to make the Unraveling, which can undo any enchantment. Between Mab pinning Nemesis down within herself and Mother Winter targeting it, I don't see how Nemesis would stand a chance for long at all. The timeline would be more like months rather than years, I'd expect.

[nadia.skylark]

Mother Winter or Lea (assuming she's cured around Small Favor; I get the feeling she is, at least by the time between books) or both could have maintained order long enough.

Mother Winter probably has rules that prevent her from interfering in Mab's domain (actually, we know she does because neither she nor Mother Summer could interfere to stop the war and explain things in Summer Knight). And I'm not convinced that Lea was cured until after Turn Coat.

Mother Winter was able to make the Unraveling, which can undo any enchantment. Between Mab pinning Nemesis down within herself and Mother Winter targeting it, I don't see how Nemesis would stand a chance for long at all. The timeline would be more like months rather than years, I'd expect.

If it was that simple, then Winter should be able to win the War against Outsiders easily.

[morriswalters]

Lea is known to be first restrained in Dead Beat, at which point Mab shows up when Lea is summoned by Harry.  She has the Athema.  By Small Favor Mab knows that Maeve was infected by Lea, it's why she quits speaking.  We next see Lea in Changes, at which point she tells Harry she can't think about the infection unless she become vulnerable to it again, implying that it is more like a drug addiction rather than a pure possession.  Small Favor is the low point in the Winter time line, when she has been stripped of all of her most powerful allies.  Lea, the Winter Knight, and her daughter Maeve.