Author Topic: Grave Peril Questions  (Read 1077 times)

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2019, 09:46:41 PM »
Dracul literally means devil and/or dragon.

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From the name Vlad III Dracula (also known as Vlad Țepeș), from the name of his father Vlad II Dracul, who was given the name Dracul by the Order of the Dragon. Dracul comes from the Romanian drac (“devil”), itself deriving from the Latin draco (“dragon”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Dracula

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2019, 12:57:29 AM »
After having a listen through of Grave Peril recently, I had this observation. Michael refers to Mavra as "Blood of the Dragon, that old Serpent". Dresden Wiki says that this implies that she is the spawn of Vlad Drakul.  I'm not sure where that implication comes from. Is this something Jim has talked about?

The Dresden Wiki talks about Drakul being "half-human" based on a quote from Ebenezer. Kindler, where did the concept of Drakul being something else trapped in a human body come from.  Sounds familiar. Maybe the Wiki isn't updated?

If Drakul isn't a dragon trapped in a human body, then why is Michael calling Mavra "Blood of the Dragon"?

Yeah Bad Alias is right. This isn't a in-universe reference; the phrase "Blood of the Dragon, that old Serpent" refers to the Devil. While yes this could also be a reference to both Drakul (the Dragon) and Dracula (little Dragon), considering Michael's highly catholic nature and his perchant for using old biblical phrases as curses, it is most likely that he is refering to the literal Devil (as in Satan/Lucifer). Satan/Lucifer is often referred to as the Dragon and the Serpent (as both words were somewhat interchangeable, Serpent does not always mean snake).

Michael may well be aware of Drakul and probably Dracula (as her progenitor). Although we have no actual indication of this in the series, or in WOJ. But it much more likely he was simply calling her a demon/devil and not making a literal reference to her origin as a Black Court vampire.

The concept of Drakul (not Dracula but his father) in the Dresdenverse, comes from several references in the books and WOJ. This quote best explains it from a 2015 reddit AMA.

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And also what is Drakul a scion of?
Drakul wasn’t a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father’s approval.
It didn’t work out so well.
2015 AMA

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2019, 02:38:57 AM »
"Blood of the Dragon" is an odd phrase to use as a reference to the Devil. I can't find anything explaining it as a reference to anything in particular. It seems most commonly used for fantasy titles and to reference Targaryens.

I don't really understand how Michael's using it in the context. I don't know if it's a curse/battle cry or a specific reference to Mavra in some way.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2019, 05:52:20 AM »
The Devil is often identified as the Serpent that tempted Eve and the Dragon of Revelation.

Mikhael and the Dragon (12:7–12)
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Book: Book of Revelation
Christian Bible part: New Testament

See this page for reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_in_Christianity

 

Offline Mira

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2019, 12:43:41 PM »
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At the end of the book, Bianca & Duke Ortega threaten Harry with war if he does not give up Susan. How does this benefit the Red Court??

It gets rid of Harry.  It benefits those who are using the Red Court as a cat's paw and know he is star born.  Let's not forget that there were those on the Senior Council who were very willing to give up Harry to prevent
war.
Miscalculation in the timing and Harry's reaction to the threat sets off the war prematurely and
eventually leads to the Red Courts demise..

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2019, 10:06:31 PM »
The Devil is often identified as the Serpent that tempted Eve and the Dragon of Revelation.

Mikhael and the Dragon (12:7–12)
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Book: Book of Revelation
Christian Bible part: New Testament

See this page for reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_in_Christianity

I'm quite familiar with the Devil as a serpent, have heard the devil referenced as a dragon, but have never heard the phrase "Blood of the Dragon" used outside of a modern fantasy reference. I don't think I've ever heard of a reference to the Devil's blood even more generally.

It gets rid of Harry.  It benefits those who are using the Red Court as a cat's paw and know he is star born.  Let's not forget that there were those on the Senior Council who were very willing to give up Harry to prevent
war.
Miscalculation in the timing and Harry's reaction to the threat sets off the war prematurely and
eventually leads to the Red Courts demise..

Isn't Ortega's proposition more as an intermediary between Bianca and Harry? Bianca had the right within the Red Court to force the issue. She was willing to let it slide if she could properly humiliate Harry. Bianca (and Ortega) expected Harry to acquiesce or die. The benefit to the Red Court is not appearing weak to the supernatural community. It didn't work out for them.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2019, 12:51:47 AM »
I'm quite familiar with the Devil as a serpent, have heard the devil referenced as a dragon, but have never heard the phrase "Blood of the Dragon" used outside of a modern fantasy reference. I don't think I've ever heard of a reference to the Devil's blood even more generally.

Fair enough, can't always be sure how well versed people are in Christian theology. I suspect that the actual phrase is either one that Jim created specifically for Michael, or one that is quite uncommon and perhaps only exists in certain communities (such as the one Jim grew up in). I too found little reference to that exact phrase.

Although you will note that the full phrase that Michael uses is "Blood of the Dragon, that old Serpent" which is strikingly similar to 12:7-12 Book of Revelation. On balance of probabilities it is more likely that this is what is in reference to, as nowhere else does anyone ever use that phrase or discuss the connection between the Black Court and Dragons.

The thing is, it isn't to be taken literally. Otherwise why not use that phrase with Ferrovax in the earlier scene? Being that there is an actual capital-D Dragon in the room with them...wouldn't that make more sense?

Also if Michael really were referencing the connection to Drakul, assuming he actually knew of that connection (which only exists as WOJ, and a indirect connection that Ebenezar mentioned), why have he and Harry never discussed the origins of the Black Court before? Or Drakul for that matter? Harry (especially this early in the series) barely even knows who the Vampire Courts are (other than surface information - remember Thomas fills him in during the party). Let alone who Drakul is, which he doesn't even understand the difference between Dracula and Drakul until Ebenezar tells him 3 books later in Blood Rites.

Offline Mira

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2019, 02:41:17 PM »
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Isn't Ortega's proposition more as an intermediary between Bianca and Harry? Bianca had the right within the Red Court to force the issue. She was willing to let it slide if she could properly humiliate Harry. Bianca (and Ortega) expected Harry to acquiesce or die. The benefit to the Red Court is not appearing weak to the supernatural community. It didn't work out for them.

However the duel was fought after Bianca died, it had nothing to do with appearing weak, it was all
about getting Harry gone, otherwise Ortega wouldn't have felt the need to cheat.. Bianca's party was all about the master players getting their chess pieces in place, like the gift of the Knife to Lea thus infecting the Winter Court..  Bianca was merely a pawn in a much larger game..  Think of Cowl as a knight or perhaps castle,  Mavra may turn out to be the queen, though that isn't all that clear as of yet.   I think Ortega thought he was a knight but when all is said and done I think he too like Bianca will turn out to be a mere pawn..


Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2019, 03:33:31 PM »
@Yuillegan: I think you're right.

@Mira: We're not talking about two books later, but I'll address why it doesn't matter. Things changed after Harry didn't acquiesce/die at Bianca's. Harry was a much bigger threat than Ortega and Bianca had deemed him, which is kind of a theme of every book. In Death Masks, Ortega's goal was to end the war, at least temporarily. If he died, the war would continue and, probably more importantly to him, he wouldn't survive, so it wouldn't matter to him that the war continued if he cheated, especially if that enabled him to survive.

As to appearing weak, that's why it was Ortega, and not some other vampire, challenging Harry. Bianca was Ortega's vassal. It is one's duty to protect one's vassals. If Harry could kill Ortega's vassal with impunity, he would be considered weak.

Offline g33k

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2019, 05:07:57 PM »
Fair enough, can't always be sure how well versed people are in Christian theology. I suspect that the actual phrase is either one that Jim created specifically for Michael, or one that is quite uncommon and perhaps only exists in certain communities (such as the one Jim grew up in). I too found little reference to that exact phrase.

Although you will note that the full phrase that Michael uses is "Blood of the Dragon, that old Serpent" which is strikingly similar to 12:7-12 Book of Revelation. On balance of probabilities it is more likely that this is what is in reference to, as nowhere else does anyone ever use that phrase or discuss the connection between the Black Court and Dragons.

The thing is, it isn't to be taken literally. Otherwise why not use that phrase with Ferrovax in the earlier scene? Being that there is an actual capital-D Dragon in the room with them...wouldn't that make more sense?

Also if Michael really were referencing the connection to Drakul, assuming he actually knew of that connection (which only exists as WOJ, and a indirect connection that Ebenezar mentioned), why have he and Harry never discussed the origins of the Black Court before? Or Drakul for that matter? Harry (especially this early in the series) barely even knows who the Vampire Courts are (other than surface information - remember Thomas fills him in during the party). Let alone who Drakul is, which he doesn't even understand the difference between Dracula and Drakul until Ebenezar tells him 3 books later in Blood Rites.

Remembering that "Harry is an imperfect narrator," I think we need to admit that ALL the characters will speak from their own POV's, based upon what they personally know and believe.  We can't count on Michael to be CORRECT, so trying to parse his allegories may be pointless.

That said:  "blood of..." is a clear reference to ancestry, and the rest of the phrase (as noted) seems to imply the Devil.

So... the antichrist?  Hm.  It's only a few centuries after the year 1000, which many presumed would be the apocalypse.
 Maybe the antichrist DID come, DID get embodied as a human (the way Christ did), but couldn't bring about the End Times and got trapped in their earthly form?

Maybe Drakul is the literal antichrist, still sticking around (stuck) from 1019 years ago...
 

Offline spiritofair

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2019, 05:09:53 PM »
Fair enough, can't always be sure how well versed people are in Christian theology. I suspect that the actual phrase is either one that Jim created specifically for Michael, or one that is quite uncommon and perhaps only exists in certain communities (such as the one Jim grew up in). I too found little reference to that exact phrase.

Although you will note that the full phrase that Michael uses is "Blood of the Dragon, that old Serpent" which is strikingly similar to 12:7-12 Book of Revelation. On balance of probabilities it is more likely that this is what is in reference to, as nowhere else does anyone ever use that phrase or discuss the connection between the Black Court and Dragons.

The thing is, it isn't to be taken literally. Otherwise why not use that phrase with Ferrovax in the earlier scene? Being that there is an actual capital-D Dragon in the room with them...wouldn't that make more sense?

Also if Michael really were referencing the connection to Drakul, assuming he actually knew of that connection (which only exists as WOJ, and a indirect connection that Ebenezar mentioned), why have he and Harry never discussed the origins of the Black Court before? Or Drakul for that matter? Harry (especially this early in the series) barely even knows who the Vampire Courts are (other than surface information - remember Thomas fills him in during the party). Let alone who Drakul is, which he doesn't even understand the difference between Dracula and Drakul until Ebenezar tells him 3 books later in Blood Rites.
Thanks for all of the feedback. I get what you and Bad Alias are saying about it perhaps being biblical, especially since it is coming from Michael, but man, with an Actual Dragon, i.e. Ferrovax, in the scene -- and this scene being one of the pivotal scenes, if not THE PIVOTAL SCENE in the entire series thus far (it sets up SOOOO much) -- I find it hard to believe that Jim just happened to have Michael say "Blood of the Dragon - that old serpent", randomly. Unless it's a red herring, and considering how important this scene is in setting things up I just don't see that, I think it means more.

I think it's safe to assume Michael knows all about black court vampires and their origins.

I think the unhuman thing that is in Drakul is a Dragon. It just makes too much sense.

Offline g33k

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2019, 05:30:10 PM »
... I think it's safe to assume Michael knows all about black court vampires and their origins ...
If there's something particular about BCV's and some sort of Hellish/Satanic origin... then yeah, that seems likely.

Otherwise, not so much; the Knights are not Encyclopedia's of the Supernatural.  Harry, in general, knows a LOT more than Michael.  Michael, otoh, knows a LOT more than Harry... specifically about Denarians (Harry didn't even know that Denarians existed, until they almost killed him).

Michael didn't particularly grasp that the Outsiders he fought (offstage, entering at the end of Proven Guilty) were anything other than your run-of-the-mill supernatural gribblies.

Thanks for all of the feedback. I get what you and Bad Alias are saying about it perhaps being biblical, especially since it is coming from Michael...
This.

Michael, alluding to a scriptural text?  Don't get caught up in the word "Dragon" as being one of those Nomovax beings, this is using "Dragon" in its Biblical context; count on it, because Michael.

He's outright saying that Lucifer is part of Mavra's origin.
 
Which is saying that Drakul is associated with Lucifer... or maybe that his sonny-boy made a literal Deal With The Devil in the creation of the Black Court.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2019, 05:58:19 PM »
@spiritofair
I suspect that’s exactly what Drakul is - although my WAG is that he was Nfected as a Dragon & being trapped as a human was the way to contain him. Dracula, his half-scion son attempted a ritual to unleash his inner supernatural nature, however due to interference from the Outside, he ends up becoming a Black court Vamp - the first.
A lot of this comes from the fact that the undead nature of the BCV is reminiscent of power from the Outside & the old WoJ referenced by @Yuillegan.

Regarding the issue of Bianca/Ortega taking Susan from Harry
My own theory is that the RCV’s chief complaint is that Harry caused the death of Rachel, Bianca’s ‘special friend’ in StF - as Bianca says at the ball in GP, she feels that Harry’s actions necessitated her death (Ramps’ own twisted POV). Her attack on Harry at her ball in GP is thus revenge. So despite being unable to kill him, taking Susan would compensate her for the loss of Rachel.
However it still doesn’t address the fact that from an outside perspective (especially those who view humans as ‘chattel’), Bianca took 2 years to make alliances & set Harry up in GP at her own center of power - despite which she was unsuccessful especially in front of the likes of Ferrovax & Lea etc., who could care less about the fate of the wizard’s ‘pet mortal’ - they would focus on the fact that the Ramps tried to assert their dominance over Chicago but were unable to take 1 young member of the White Council in their own stronghold.
To a wise & experienced ancient being, this would portend that the Reds are overconfident & that despite their new alliances with questionable characters, an individual White Council wizard is not to be underestimated. They would likely not throw in with the Reds in their quest for a new world order (as we see in the following books - the Ramps don’t really have too many allies outside the Outsiders & the Black council - even the other Vamp courts refuse to back them)

@Mira
I don’t know that Ortega was a pawn. From what we can surmise, the Ortegas (Paolo & Ariana) were the faction in the RCV that were not Nfected/ thrilled with the alliance with the Black council. Their plans were the most sensible, & seemed to be directed towards the overall good of the Ramps, however Ariana’s attempt at a coup gets shut down by Harry.
I suspect the Red King’s bloodthirst is a result of being Nfected.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2019, 03:44:33 PM »
Yep. Kumori even tells us about part of it, in her conversation with Dresden in Dead Beat -- imagine if no one ever had to die. It's a huge idea, and not hard to see why someone might think it worth a few broken eggs to make that omelet. Trillions of human lives against maybe a hundred thousand at the dark hallow -- a hundred thousand human lives that would have ended within a century in any case.

I wonder if, in gaining enough power to end death, Kumori may even believe that those sacrificed in the ritual could be returned to life afterward. Necromantic magic kinda makes the whole concept of death a little squishier than it is in reality.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2019, 08:03:20 PM »
Thanks for all of the feedback. I get what you and Bad Alias are saying about it perhaps being biblical, especially since it is coming from Michael, but man, with an Actual Dragon, i.e. Ferrovax, in the scene -- and this scene being one of the pivotal scenes, if not THE PIVOTAL SCENE in the entire series thus far (it sets up SOOOO much) -- I find it hard to believe that Jim just happened to have Michael say "Blood of the Dragon - that old serpent", randomly. Unless it's a red herring, and considering how important this scene is in setting things up I just don't see that, I think it means more.

I think it's safe to assume Michael knows all about black court vampires and their origins.

I think the unhuman thing that is in Drakul is a Dragon. It just makes too much sense.
It certainly is an odd phrase with some odd context.

@kbrizzle: I think Bianca's behavior with regards to Rachel was her succumbing to bloodlust. I get the impression that basically all RCV have this and one of the major factors in obtaining (or losing) status in the RC is controlling it.