Author Topic: Grave Peril Questions  (Read 10755 times)

Offline kbrizzle

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Grave Peril Questions
« on: April 03, 2019, 06:47:02 AM »
After re-reading this book & given our knowledge of subsequent events, I noticed some odd things in the plot. I have my own theories as to what’s going on, but I’m interested in everyone’s opinions.

  • Mavra’s role in the fight at Bianca’s party was pretty underwhelming given her power level. The things she does of note in this book are to train Bianca in vampiric magic (perhaps necromancy-based?), weaken the barrier with the spirit world & help power up Kravos enough to wreak havoc on his enemies. Despite doing all this, her only contribution to Bianca’s cause in the party is to successfully stop Harry & co. from trying to leave early. Michael is able to take her fairly easily even without the Sword, using faith magic alone. And she’s mysteriously absent from round 2 when Harry goes back to the mansion & kills Bianca, unraveling their plan. Her stated reason for being at the party is seek revenge against Michael for eliminating her scourge decades ago.
  • Seeing how powerful Cowl truly is in Deadbeat, it seems odd that he would be relegated to attendant duty at the party. Also, given that Mavra’s actions kick-off the plot of Deadbeat, it’s interesting that she & Cowl are at the party without interacting much or acting against each other/ in concert
  • At the end of the book, Bianca & Duke Ortega threaten Harry with war if he does not give up Susan. How does this benefit the Red Court?? As Michael points out after the fight at the masquerade, Bianca took her best shot at Harry very publicly & failed. How is stealing Susan (who is not publicly known in the supernatural world as his girlfriend) a commensurate gain? She basically has Harry breaking into her mansion & has captured him - why not just kill him, which was the point of many of her actions at the masquerade? Why allow him to walk out with everything minus Susan? I assume Bianca thinks she can control Harry through enthralling Susan, but she has to know that Harry is going to spend all his time trying to destroy her once this happens (just like she did after Harry “kills” her paramour in StF). She has still lost face in front of the supernatural community since she was unable to kill Harry in her own center of power

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2019, 08:01:57 AM »
1. I think Mavra has been holding off for years. Sometimes as author's add new scope to a series and new rules, they can find clever plot threads to explain holes. Such as when McCoy puts a magic lock on Mavra. Quite the trick, yet rarely attempted. And not just because McCoy is Senior Council level wizard. I suspect Mavra (in that book) was not written as powerful as she became later. Numerous characters experienced power-slide over the series and she was one. She may well have had other motives to be there, indeed Cowl does state many things of importance happened there and I am sure we haven't found out anywhere near all of them.
2. As we only see things from Harry's perspective, there is no way to know whether they (Cowl and Mavra) were working together or otherwise. I also believe that there is potential to use Time Travel to explain inconsistencies - I think there is even a WOJ on it from a while back. I also think Cowl and Kumori, like Mavra, prefer to be power behind the throne/scene people. Allows them greater influence and freedom. Cowl clearly doesn't like to draw too much attention to himself, same with Mavra. Neither are Ferrovax level - who just gives zero F's.
3. I think that was explained that they were looking for an excuse for war, and a hot-headed inexperience member of the White Council was a prime target. It was not the value of Susan to the White Council, but rather her value to Harry that made her a tool. I don't believe they thought for one minute Harry would leave Susan. But even so, I think it was also Bianca flexing her muscle (under Ortega's attention). It was a test - could they act perhaps more openly without fear of consequence. And also just in general - revenge for Bianca's dead servant and humilation for the Wizard who so publicly embarrassed her. Remember in the Supernatural world, there is a big thing of respect and honour. Bianca had to restore her standing after losing it so early just after being promoted.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2019, 06:30:34 PM »
Mavra’s role in the fight at Bianca’s party was pretty underwhelming given her power level. The things she does of note in this book are to train Bianca in vampiric magic (perhaps necromancy-based?), weaken the barrier with the spirit world & help power up Kravos enough to wreak havoc on his enemies. Despite doing all this, her only contribution to Bianca’s cause in the party is to successfully stop Harry & co. from trying to leave early. Michael is able to take her fairly easily even without the Sword, using faith magic alone. And she’s mysteriously absent from round 2 when Harry goes back to the mansion & kills Bianca, unraveling their plan. Her stated reason for being at the party is seek revenge against Michael for eliminating her scourge decades ago.
I think Mavra was there to try a sneak attack, but she's a squirrelly sort (as behooves one of the last remaining members of an annihilated race). As soon as Harry, Susan and Michael were on to her, her only next move was to stick around for the official parts and then run like the wind once the real fighting started.

After all, in a fight, you might die - especially when EVERYONE knows what is needed to kill you like a chump.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2019, 06:57:48 PM »
1/2. I don't think Cowl and Mavra were working hand-in-hand. I think that both of them showing up in both Grave Peril and Dead Beat was mostly a consequence of necromancy being involved. Though I've often wondered if Bony Tony "acquired" the shipping container with the Word of Kemmler around this time.
That said, I do think you're right in that Mavra was understated in GP. I don't really understand what she had to gain by mentoring Bianca, unless she was attempting to manipulate the Red Court and the White Council into war somehow, but that's... not really a high percentage plan, unless she knew the future.
On the other hand, wasn't Mavra the one screwing with the Barrier? Because that's what let Kravos become the Nightmare (that and a dark ritual, which I suspect he put together with Mavra or Bianca's help), and also what let the ghost of Bianca's "friend"—the one with the inconsistent name—rise up to haunt her, which is part of what drove Bianca nuts. So I'd say it's possible that she was manipulating Bianca and Kravos to get to Harry and Michael. Mavra doesn't strike me as the kind of villain who fights in the open; she's seen too many Blampires get taken down by angry villagers for that.
Also, there is a lot of speculation about the origin of Black Court Vampires and the Outsiders, driven in part by this Word of Jim:

Quote
And also what is Drakul a scion of?
Drakul wasn’t a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father’s approval.
It didn’t work out so well.

Some have taken that as a possible hint that Drakul himself was an Outsider who got stuck on the Inside. There's also the strange comment Harry makes to Lash about Outsiders and the Black Court in White Night. I just spent like half an hour looking through the Word of Jim archive to try to find it, but I specifically remember Jim responding to a fan's question about that, and clarifying that it wasn't an error (meaning that he didn't mean "Black Council," which some thought might have been the case, since Cowl was present at the time, and they were discussing Outsiders and Starborn). Regardless, it's a curious thing to link the Black Court to Cowl at all in White Night; there weren't any Black Court Vampires hanging around, so why would Harry bring it up?

But then there's Cowl, who gave Lea the Nemesis-tainted Athame in Grave Peril, which is linked to the Outsiders, along with Vittorio (one of Cowl's flunkies) being outright possessed by an Outsider somehow. So... yeah. I think there's a connection, I just don't know if they're working together.

3. Mostly, I think Bianca was crazy by Grave Peril (being haunted by a ghost for a few years could do that) and wanted to make him suffer. She also was looking for a legal reason to kill Harry while he was there at the party, and the best way to do that was to goad him into attacking—which he did. Ortega threatening Harry with war was, in my opinion, a representative of the Red Court trying to be the Adult in the Room, because they weren't ready for it yet—he's also the guy who tries to put the brakes on the war in Death Masks. I don't think Bianca particularly cared about the consequences.

Offline peregrine

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2019, 07:04:22 PM »
We didn't see much from Mavra because I imagine she had no reason to get involved in the fighting.  She had no major involvement in that whole situation to warrant it.

Offline dspringer1

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2019, 11:26:44 PM »
Quote
1.Mavra’s role in the fight at Bianca’s party was pretty underwhelming given her power level. The things she does of note in this book are to train Bianca in vampiric magic (perhaps necromancy-based?), weaken the barrier with the spirit world & help power up Kravos enough to wreak havoc on his enemies. Despite doing all this, her only contribution to Bianca’s cause in the party is to successfully stop Harry & co. from trying to leave early. Michael is able to take her fairly easily even without the Sword, using faith magic alone. And she’s mysteriously absent from round 2 when Harry goes back to the mansion & kills Bianca, unraveling their plan. Her stated reason for being at the party is seek revenge against Michael for eliminating her scourge decades ago.

I can think of a couple reasons for Mavara to keep her role limited
1) She is a guest of Bianca under the accords - which likely limits her action
2) She has no need to do more - or sees no advantage to doing more.
3) She is rather risk adverse






Quote
2.Seeing how powerful Cowl truly is in Deadbeat, it seems odd that he would be relegated to attendant duty at the party. Also, given that Mavra’s actions kick-off the plot of Deadbeat, it’s interesting that she & Cowl are at the party without interacting much or acting against each other/ in concert
The whole point of the party was to be able to conduct biz without alerting the White Council or other supernatural powers.  A party was a perfect excuse to meet on the down-low.  If Cowl starts throwing down power or even provide a noticeable presence, it destroys that subterfuge and probably alerts many powers that something weird/dangerous is happening and they better pay attention.     




Quote
3.At the end of the book, Bianca & Duke Ortega threaten Harry with war if he does not give up Susan. How does this benefit the Red Court??

It is obvious that Duke Ortega was speaking to the larger audience (aka - the larger supernatural community that will hear about events) and making diplomatic points at Dresden/White Council's expense.  Painting them as both rash and weak.   It was equally obvious that Duke Ortega was shocked when Dresden refused to give up and started that war.     Ortega misunderstood Dresden and made the wrong call.   As a result, The Red Court went to war at a time and place that Ortega would never have picked. 



Quote
As Michael points out after the fight at the masquerade, Bianca took her best shot at Harry very publicly & failed. How is stealing Susan (who is not publicly known in the supernatural world as his girlfriend) a commensurate gain?

The spat between Dresden and Bianca is clearly a PERSONAL conflict.  Bianca is doing this to get revenge on Harry because she understands him enough to know that this outcome (Susan taken as a vampire) would be devastating to Harry -- and Bianca is confident that she has forced a situation where Harry either has to eat it (a great public victory) or Harry gets to die failing to stop it (a great public and private victory).  She cannot loose - unless of course Harry kills her minions, burns down her house and kills her.   But who could have seen that happening :)


Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2019, 05:36:47 AM »
Seeing how powerful Cowl truly is in Deadbeat, it seems odd that he would be relegated to attendant duty at the party. Also, given that Mavra’s actions kick-off the plot of Deadbeat, it’s interesting that she & Cowl are at the party without interacting much or acting against each other/ in concert
The whole point of the party was to be able to conduct biz without alerting the White Council or other supernatural powers.  A party was a perfect excuse to meet on the down-low.  If Cowl starts throwing down power or even provide a noticeable presence, it destroys that subterfuge and probably alerts many powers that something weird/dangerous is happening and they better pay attention. 
   
It's possible that Cowl and Mavra were working together or communicated with one another during the events of Grave Peril.  It's also possible that Mavra was directly responsible for bringing in Cowl and Kumori to act as Bianca's flunkies; and I'll get to why I think that may be the case further down.

However, I think it is also possible that Cowl and Mavra have different long-term objectives.  Meaning they were only allies of convenience; like Kemmler's disciples, and at some point their interests might diverge from one another.     

The spat between Dresden and Bianca is clearly a PERSONAL conflict.  Bianca is doing this to get revenge on Harry ...

Yes to pretty much everything you said, even the parts I edited out.  Now here's something I've argued for years.  Bianca was a relatively minor power in her own right.  Even the promotion she was celebrating didn't make her powerful enough (IMO) that she'd be making deals with Outsiders to hand out Nemfected presents to her guests.  Her interests appeared to be local rather than global and her motivations against Harry were personal.  Think of the target that was painted on Bianca's back by handing out the tainted items.  Remember what Lea said about how she owed Bianca payback for giving her the tainted Athame.  I think Bianca was a patsy and either Cowl or both Cowl and Mavra were responsible for the Bianca's gifts being tainted.  They didn't plan on Harry knocking off Bianca, but when it happened it made things better for them.  Bianca wasn't around to deny that she was responsible for the tainted items.  (By the way, Bianca being set up as a patsy helps explain why Mavra didn't appear to be that powerful in the fight at Bianca's party.  She wasn't on Bianca's side, she was testing Michael without his sword and Harry without his full strength.  When she didn't get an easy victory she wasn't going to go all out just for Bianca's sake.)
   
It has been stated or suggested that Outsider magic is what animates the Black Court, or perhaps it was what first animated the Black Court into existence.  This would explain Mavra's willingness to help the Outsiders.  They are to her; and her kind, progenitors, parents of a sort.  However, it's more difficult to understand why Cowl or any wizard would make a deal with Outsiders, outside of being Nemfected themselves.  In Dead Beat both Cowl and Kumori spoke of a New Order arising, but knowing the Outsiders are making a move for power and deciding to throw in with them seems very questionable to me.  Jim has yet to explain why anyone would trust the Outsiders to keep any deals they may have made.

It's more easy to understand how Cowl and Mavra may have become allies.  In Dead Beat Bob explained how Kemmler had friends in most of the vampire courts and with other supernatural bad guys.  It's possible Kemmler introduced his students to some of his contacts.  From both Kemmler and Mavra, Cowl would have learned of the Outsider's plans.  What made him join their team is an open question.  Also, it's possible that the attempt to perform the Darkhallow wasn't simply aimed at the eliminating the Senior Council of the White Council, it was an attempt by Cowl to gain enough power so he wouldn't have to trust the Outsiders to keep their word.  He'd have been strong enough to demand that they keep their word.

I wonder what it would take to make Harry re-think the events of Bianca's party.  Once he does, he should be smart enough to realize that Lea would want to know who was really responsible for driving her so crazy Mab had to turn her into a Sidhecicle in order to cure her.  Now that I think about it, Mab might also want to know who was indirectly responsible for Nemfecting Maeve.  Harry has some juicy material to trade with Lea, and possibly with Mab, and he doesn't even realize it.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2019, 10:55:45 AM »


Bianca, as my brother in law would say, "knows just enough to be dumb.."  She had just enough
power or was allowed to have just enough power to think she was a real up and comer and craved more.   This made her the perfect cat's paw... 

Lea had this in common with Bianca,  she was second only to Mab, but that wasn't enough.. There are signs of it from the first time we meet her.   No, I don't think she was infected before she got the Knife, but her desire for more power made her the perfect dupe for the Enemy and a way in to the Winter Court through the Knife...  By the time Mab discovered what was going down it was almost too late.. Lea was treatable, but Maeve wasn't...

I am not sure that Cowl and Mavra are responsible for the Knife being tainted, oh they knew, but I doubt they were behind the plot..

Offline Kindler

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2019, 05:18:51 PM »
However, it's more difficult to understand why Cowl or any wizard would make a deal with Outsiders, outside of being Nemfected themselves.  In Dead Beat both Cowl and Kumori spoke of a New Order arising, but knowing the Outsiders are making a move for power and deciding to throw in with them seems very questionable to me.  Jim has yet to explain why anyone would trust the Outsiders to keep any deals they may have made.

Personally, I think that Cowl, Peabody, and any other mortal wizards "allying" with the Outsiders isn't what it looks like. I think they're trying to use the Outsiders, including Nemesis infection, as weapons. They're trying to upset the natural order so that they can seize enough power to create a new...well, in their minds, it's probably a utopia. But the Old Guard has to go, and this is one of the ways to do that. I think, anyway.

Offline ClintACK

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2019, 10:13:58 AM »
Personally, I think that Cowl, Peabody, and any other mortal wizards "allying" with the Outsiders isn't what it looks like. I think they're trying to use the Outsiders, including Nemesis infection, as weapons. They're trying to upset the natural order so that they can seize enough power to create a new...well, in their minds, it's probably a utopia. But the Old Guard has to go, and this is one of the ways to do that. I think, anyway.

Yep. Kumori even tells us about part of it, in her conversation with Dresden in Dead Beat -- imagine if no one ever had to die. It's a huge idea, and not hard to see why someone might think it worth a few broken eggs to make that omelet. Trillions of human lives against maybe a hundred thousand at the dark hallow -- a hundred thousand human lives that would have ended within a century in any case.





Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2019, 03:10:37 PM »
Regarding Mavra’s role

Looked at from a certain point of view, Mavra was present just enough to make Bianca’s plan happen. While Mavra has no personal beef with Harry yet, perhaps she knew that he would be a future impediment to her plans so she used Bianca’s own desire for revenge as a way to neutralize him.

I also think that her performance in the fight was underwhelming because Michael hit her with faith magic directly - I don’t think she had a good defense against that - it probably damaged her enough that she didn’t want to risk losing her life in the fight (especially since she was about to break Amoraccius, likely pissing off TWG).

Regarding Cowl

To me this is further proof that Cowl is Simon. Since the party happens a few months before the attack at Archangel, Simon is keeping a low profile while propagating his nefarious agenda. Once Simon is ‘dead’, he openly walks around as Cowl.

Perhaps he hadn’t made himself known to Mavra in his Cowl persona yet, so she had no reason to wonder if he was a nexromancer.

@ Kindler & ClintACK

Absolutely agree - Based on Kumori’s conversation with Harry & Lea’s reasons for taking the athame (trying to find freedom from that which stalks us all), it seems to me that perhaps the saner members of the Black council have made a deal with the Outsiders to “end death” - that is their ultimate goal.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2019, 06:53:27 AM »
The other way of interpreting Mavra’s role is that everything she has done in the series from GP onwards is to set up Harry’s role in DB.

Basically Mavra finds out that there is an eventual Black Council plan to perform the Darkhallow in Chicago (either because she is on it or through spies) - realizing the danger that a new necro-god would pose her & her kind, she is determined to stop it.

She does this by taking Bianca on as an apprentice of sorts - the idea here is to have Bianca consolidate power in Chicago. The newly elevated Bianca would then use the might of the Red Court to clamp down on the Kemmlerites before they perform the Darkhallow.

However Mavra sees that Harry is stronger & therefore has a better chance of beating the Kemmlerites, so she disappears. She returns in BR to test Harry/ entrap him.

Offline g33k

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2019, 07:43:54 PM »
Mavra’s role in the fight at Bianca’s party was pretty underwhelming given her power level...
Seeing how powerful Cowl truly is in Deadbeat...
Bianca was being played by most of her "guests."  She was WAY out of her depth (but too foolish or power-mad to know it).  Mavra or Cowl could have stomped all over her without exerting themselves.  Ferrovax has to exert extra care in order NOT to.

Neither Mavra nor Cowl has any real motive TO join the fight, and Bianca has zero leverage to make them -- indeed, as her "guests" she is obligated to spend her meagre power "defending" them!

They were there for THEIR motivations, not for hers; and I doubt she had any idea what their motivations/priorities were.

I expect one part of their motivation was to get a peek at this "rogue" wizard Harry Dresden, see him in action.  I don't expect Harry was a top priority for EITHER of them, however!

Also, we have in DB the info that necro's (which may include Mavra) like to socialize and smile together while all plotting mutual backstabbery.  So there may have been an element of that.

At the end of the book, Bianca & Duke Ortega threaten Harry with war if he does not give up Susan. How does this benefit the Red Court??
I don't think they expected Harry to throw down; I think Bianca was genuinely surprised.  They set up overwhelming odds against him... Nightmare-weakened, sick from Ramp-Spittle, exhausted, etc.  Most wizards would have no winning play there; they were planning him to creep away with his tail between his legs.  Later, they'd publicly humiliate him with Ramp-Susan taunting him about how she HAD been his but now she hates him, &c &c &c.  And eventually they'd take him, en-Ramp him via Susan.  The End.

Back-up plan -- Harry fights, and dies.  Not as good, but it gives Bianca the victory she needs the prove that the WC rogue wizard, who challenged her, got his comeupance.  And she STILL gets the "moral" victory of Harry dying with the knowledge that Susan was Ramp'ed.

Harry choosing to fight... and WIN??!?  Not one of their projected outcomes.  Given the pre-existing Ramp plans to make war against the WC, a savvy politico like Ortega /HAD/ to know that Harry trashing Bianca's would tip some fence-sitters into the hardline war-now camp, and BADLY damage their chances.  If THAT outcome had been anywhere on Ortega's radar, he'd have scuttled the plan, and Harry&Justine would have become food, down in the basement; Harry would never have woken.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 03:17:02 PM by g33k »

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2019, 05:09:02 PM »
@g33k
Agreed - that’s why one of my WAGs is that Mavra was planning on using Bianca & the Ramps to shut down the Kemmlerites who would show up to perform the Darkhallow (which she knew either as a member of/ spying on the Black Council). That Harry won just meant that she had to change the game plan a bit, but she still gets what she wants by the time of DB.

Offline spiritofair

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Re: Grave Peril Questions
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2019, 07:01:45 PM »
After having a listen through of Grave Peril recently, I had this observation. Michael refers to Mavra as "Blood of the Dragon, that old Serpent". Dresden Wiki says that this implies that she is the spawn of Vlad Drakul.  I'm not sure where that implication comes from. Is this something Jim has talked about?

The Dresden Wiki talks about Drakul being "half-human" based on a quote from Ebenezer. Kindler, where did the concept of Drakul being something else trapped in a human body come from.  Sounds familiar. Maybe the Wiki isn't updated?

If Drakul isn't a dragon trapped in a human body, then why is Michael calling Mavra "Blood of the Dragon"?