Author Topic: I Realized Something About Outsiders  (Read 2978 times)

Offline Eguzky

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I Realized Something About Outsiders
« on: May 30, 2019, 08:55:20 PM »
So I was rereading Cold Days when I got to where Dresden says 'Outsiders have to be invited into our world' and it clicked; Outsiders have to be invited into the world..like the supernatural have to be invited into a home.
Does that mean the barrier between worlds (And I know Dresden has seen it) is almost like a threshold?
What if the reason the supernatural have to be invited in is BECAUSE Outsiders have to be invited in? What if they work off the same rules of nature, as it were?

I guess, what I am saying is..what if the Outsiders are, to the world/supernatural, what the supernatural is to normal mortals?
I mean, the barrier is against Faerie, right? Not the mortal world.
Outsiders -> Faerie -> Mortals

Offline g33k

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Re: I Realized Something About Outsiders
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2019, 12:18:23 AM »
Hmmm.  An interesting... thought, analogy, whatever.
Not just faeries that have problems with thresholds, though...
vamps, ghosts, even human wizards.  Almost every supernatural, really!
Outsiders -> Faerie -> Mortals

Say rather
Outsiders:Creation  as  Supernaturals:Homes

Creation is our home.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: I Realized Something About Outsiders
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2019, 04:39:19 AM »
Agreed, they’re both barriers - one is metaphysical & the other is both physical & metaphysical

Offline Avernite

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Re: I Realized Something About Outsiders
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2019, 07:48:57 AM »
I should hope the line at the Outside is a bit tougher, though, since we've seen the occasional supernatural just being uncomfortable crossing a threshold rather than being really hampered.

But apart from that, the analogy is pretty good; and, of course, the barrier between inside and outside still has to be defended to work so it's clearly also not impervious, hence Winter.

Offline exartiem

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Re: I Realized Something About Outsiders
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2019, 04:23:20 PM »
I don't think its the same thing, exactly.  The Outsiders come from a place where there are no rules and they are trying to get into a place that has rules.  They cannot destroy reality from the outside so they have to come in.  In order to do that, they need to borrow power from Inside in order to have a form that can act, and that power comes with rules attached.  All power Inside is claimed in one way or another, so Outsiders have to find someone from Inside to give them access to that power.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: I Realized Something About Outsiders
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2019, 01:19:31 AM »
It's a good idea. I believe it has been floated before in some fashion, somewhere in the boards.

Consider this then: Black Court Vampires CANNOT cross a threshold uninvited, full stop. I suspect this is to do with how far removed they are from mortals, and more likely, the source of their creation (Drakul, via Dracula).

But yes, the analogy that creation is our home and not the Outsiders, and therefore that is why all mortal dwellings are protected in that way against the Supernatural.

However, as a counter - Bob states in one of the earlier books (It might have been Blood Rites but I am uncertain) that one of the few beings that could flat stick cross a threshold and still have enough power to torture someone with magic is an Old One, or a "hoary old god". I suspect upper level Outsiders (even the Walkers perhaps) could do so too, considering the fact that it appears higher-tier, multi-reality spanning beings (Angels, and especially Archangels) seem to have no issue crossing threshold or magical circles.

Which leads me to my point about magical circles also being in the same boat, to a degree, as threshold. I think it is all tied up in Choice and Free Will (the emphasis on Will is important, as that is how you make a circle actually work or any act of magic really). The Freedom is most important also, but you can have restricted or compromised Will whereas Freedom cannot be on its own, as it indicates there must be some level of Will (even in the supernatural and immortals - WOJ on that).

Exartiem, very interesting idea about how they must borrow power. I suspect its less about Power, and more about Choice. Outsiders seem to be able to provide Power to mortals and supernaturals, and some measure of Freedom to Immortals (who traditionally by their nature are limited in their Choice). The Outsiders are very similar to the Void Walkers (etc) in DnD/WoW. The curious thing with Void Walkers is they have enormous amounts of power, but are constantly losing it in when they are inside the universe. I think the Outsiders have a similar issue. When they are invited in, it give the the ability to employ their Power. They are given a level of Choice. Without it, they would be either very limited or perhaps completely unable to act and impose their Will. Which is why they can only be summoned via MORTAL magic. Immortals do not have the unlimited, truly Free Will that mortals in the Dresdenverse seem to have. Perhaps they borrow the body of the summoner, and their soul (granting access to their ability to Choose). Perhaps not, we can really only speculate on the mechanics...although He Who Walks Behind did possess (Madge? the main Witch) in Blood Rites, in order to act in the Universe. So we have partially seen how an Outsider summoning works.

This all begs the bigger question of why almost every supernatural being is somewhat hampered by thresholds and circles, etc. Where does magic really come from? What is the origin of all these supernatural beings? Perhaps it is more connected to the Outsiders than we are led to believe. 

Offline Kindler

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Re: I Realized Something About Outsiders
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2019, 04:42:02 PM »
I've often thought of the Outer Gates as a kind of threshold. I think they (or the Walls of Reality, or whatever) serve a similar purpose against Outsiders. I don't think the Outsiders we've seen have had full use of their power, kinda like how Harry leaves a big chunk of his power behind when he crosses one uninvited.