Author Topic: Nemesis WAG  (Read 3002 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Nemesis WAG
« on: February 04, 2019, 05:56:41 AM »
Alright guys, here is a pretty wild theory here.

In Marvel comics, there is a being of extraordinary power called Nemesis. It existed before the Universe (ultraverse/multiverse) and became tired of it's existence. It split itself six ways into the infinity stones. And that act was the Big Bang that destroyed the previous universe creating the current one.

Now we know that Jim is a good old marvel fan, and has been reading it a long time. Perhaps as part of his inspiration was this story.

I do not think that the Nemesis in the DF is the being that split into the Queens of Faerie, I think Hecate is still a strong connection there. But I do think then that perhaps the Nemesis in DF might well be something from before the Universe. I suspect that it might even be related. Perhaps even on the scale of a Creator itself. Why do I say that? Well just think about what it can do for a second. It can cause beings who cannot lie, to lie. It can corrupt the good and twist the evil into destroying themselves. It literally changes reality with it's corruption. It can take a way a mortal's free will. It does what even an Archangel cannot. That is TWG level power. It literally can create new futures - new realities - by taking away or subverting Free Will and Choice.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 05:52:11 AM by Yuillegan »

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 05:29:32 PM »
The Outside existed before the creation of the Inside, so it is imminently plausible that Nemesis predates Creation.

By the way, in a story with the mortal world (existence as we know it in the real world), the Nevernever, the both of them (the Inside), parallel universes that fit in there somehow, and the Outside, do we have settled definitions for all that?

Creation: Everything not Outside (all the parallel mortal worlds and Nevernevers)?

Inside: Harry's mortal world and Nevernever unless otherwise stated?

Universe=Inside?

It's my understanding that there is just the one Outside attacking all realities, but I don't recall where I get that understanding, so I could easily be wrong.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 05:51:02 AM »
True enough I think that Nemesis predates Creation - regardless of whether Nemesis is a Creator-level being or something only "merely" as powerful as one of the Walkers.

My theory is that the Outsiders hate Creation/Inside because it forces them to be partly real - as opposed to being spread the non-being in some semi-gestalt fashion that existing in non-existence might be. I think that is very painful and uncomfortable to Things that are not used to being real at all - and that pissed the Outside off. I do not believe they have what we understand as a Hive Mind - but I think something similar that still allows for individual personalities - and represents itself differently depending on which reality it is trying to get into.

And yes you are correct, there is just the one Outside attacking the continuum of possible realities i.e. Creation/Inside. I think that is mostly explained by that quote I linked you from Jim saying Outsiders look different depending on which Reality they are attacking. I think you can infer then that it is just the one group - similar to the Void in WoW or Abyss demons in DnD.


Offline morriswalters

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 02:09:18 PM »
Mildly incoherent this morning, but in the interest of random gibbering.  Jim has given us some hints of the structure.  Model the Never Never like fluid in a pipe.  The water doesn't move at the surface of the pipe.  The Never Never is the water touching the pipe. The boundary between Creation and everything outside it.  The further away from the pipe wall the more stable reality.(evidenced by time being variable in the Never Never)

Given that the Sidhe don't have free will they aren't part of the multiverse.  Humans only thank you.  Human reality is like a tree with many branches.  Each new branch representing a choice, but not all choices.  Only important ones.(Vadderung in Cold Days referencing his model of temporal inertia)  The Mothers can see the tree grow and branch.(Cold Days referencing Harry learning of the Adversary)

Why do the Outsiders want in?  Who knows.  But it could be more about opposition to the Creator rather than any property of Creation.  Jealousy maybe?  Or maybe they are a property of the void, anti Creation.  Model this as entropy with the Outsiders representing the Heat Death of the Universe.(Empty night.  If Jim loves physics, then as the universe expands there comes a point where there would be no stars to be seen in the night sky) 

Sorry for going on :(


Offline Salusen

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 09:03:15 PM »
Mildly incoherent this morning, but in the interest of random gibbering.  Jim has given us some hints of the structure.  Model the Never Never like fluid in a pipe.  The water doesn't move at the surface of the pipe.  The Never Never is the water touching the pipe. The boundary between Creation and everything outside it.  The further away from the pipe wall the more stable reality.(evidenced by time being variable in the Never Never)

Given that the Sidhe don't have free will they aren't part of the multiverse.  Humans only thank you.  Human reality is like a tree with many branches.  Each new branch representing a choice, but not all choices.  Only important ones.(Vadderung in Cold Days referencing his model of temporal inertia)  The Mothers can see the tree grow and branch.(Cold Days referencing Harry learning of the Adversary)

Why do the Outsiders want in?  Who knows.  But it could be more about opposition to the Creator rather than any property of Creation.  Jealousy maybe?  Or maybe they are a property of the void, anti Creation.  Model this as entropy with the Outsiders representing the Heat Death of the Universe.(Empty night.  If Jim loves physics, then as the universe expands there comes a point where there would be no stars to be seen in the night sky) 

Sorry for going on :(


This actually makes a LOT of sense.
-- Salusen

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2019, 02:33:51 AM »
What do you mean by the Sidhe aren't part of the multiverse? I agree that beings without choice can't cause a branching to occur.

I don't think that there are the same Sidhe in every universe. For example, we have seen two Ladies die at the hands of mortals. By an act of free will, that could have been different, and thus created one universe where, for example, Aurora lived and another where she didn't. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see both Aurora and Maeve alive in Mirror Mirror.

"Each new branch representing a choice, but not all choices." As to that, my understanding that it is any exercise of free will, and that most of the time, people just follow their nature. This is based on the short story the Warrior. To be fair, I haven't read that in a good while.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2019, 03:43:20 AM »
Quote
What do you mean by the Sidhe aren't part of the multiverse? I agree that beings without choice can't cause a branching to occur.
The Queens and the Ladies are different than the Mothers.  There may well be multiple Ladies and Queens, but only one set of Mothers.  Mother Summer tells Mother Winter that it isn't her world.  I think the Mothers exist at the point in Creation before any splits.  They can't exist in this world because they can see all possible branches.

It's too confusing to explain in a direct fashion so, consider seven branches where the Red Cap exists.  He's needed to fight at the Gates.  How many Redcaps answer the call and show up at the Gate?  All seven?  If there is only one gate, that is the question you're left to answer. 

I imagine it as all seven Red Caps collapsing to one, who keeps track of all the alternates.  Which I guess is why it's like pulling teeth to get a clear answer from one of them. Jim has hinted at something like this with Toot Toot.  When he needs to know Russian, he knows Russian.
Quote
I don't think that there are the same Sidhe in every universe. For example, we have seen two Ladies die at the hands of mortals. By an act of free will, that could have been different, and thus created one universe where, for example, Aurora lived and another where she didn't. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see both Aurora and Maeve alive in Mirror Mirror.
The human part of Aurora may have had free will but her mantle can't.  She can't spawn a new branch.  And if indeed the Adversary got her then she was rooted when it happened, he got every Aurora.
Quote
"Each new branch representing a choice, but not all choices." As to that, my understanding that it is any exercise of free will, and that most of the time, people just follow their nature. This is based on the short story the Warrior. To be fair, I haven't read that in a good while.
Mostly people don't do random.  Almost everything you do is predicated on how your life is constructed.  But one day you decide to cross the street and get hit and killed.  This choice has a weight.  On the other hand taking the scenic route on a trip that leads you to the same destination as the direct route has much less weight and you end up at your destination either way.  This choice has almost no weight.  The first may spawn a new branch, but the second never would all things being equal.  And the first would only if your existence was more important than not.

Anyway, did that make sense? I get dopey thinking about it.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2019, 06:53:35 AM »
Mildly incoherent this morning, but in the interest of random gibbering. 

Quite fine! I do it all the time! Helps get the ideas out.

Jim has given us some hints of the structure.  Model the Never Never like fluid in a pipe.  The water doesn't move at the surface of the pipe.  The Never Never is the water touching the pipe. The boundary between Creation and everything outside it.  The further away from the pipe wall the more stable reality.(evidenced by time being variable in the Never Never)

Really curious about this - do you have know where the quotes are on Nevernever structure? If I understand you correctly (the Water is the NN, the Pipe is Outside? And what is the Reality/Universe in that example?

Given that the Sidhe don't have free will they aren't part of the multiverse.  Humans only thank you.  Human reality is like a tree with many branches.  Each new branch representing a choice, but not all choices.  Only important ones.(Vadderung in Cold Days referencing his model of temporal inertia)  The Mothers can see the tree grow and branch.(Cold Days referencing Harry learning of the Adversary)

I think I understand your view, as explained in your follow up post, that most Fae (being quite mortal) could exist in several realities but the really powerful Fae (like the Mothers) are so powerful that is unlikely there is more than one (which is why they can "see" all the branches of Creation). Though I have a theory that Immortals might only have just one of themselves - but we will see.

Why do the Outsiders want in?  Who knows.  But it could be more about opposition to the Creator rather than any property of Creation.  Jealousy maybe?  Or maybe they are a property of the void, anti Creation.  Model this as entropy with the Outsiders representing the Heat Death of the Universe.(Empty night.  If Jim loves physics, then as the universe expands there comes a point where there would be no stars to be seen in the night sky) 

Sorry for going on :(

No no, going on is good. Gave us lots to discuss! Quite so - it could be about opposition to the Creator, in fact I think in all cases that is highly likely. The question is why. I believe it because Creation itself makes them uncomfortable, or in outright pain. Jim has hinted at this - see the WOJ on Reality being noisy and loud. They (for want of a better word) ARE natural. They are not synthetic. They may represent Chaos/Disorder/Anti-life but that is what they ARE. Their sole reason for existing. Like a swarm of locust or a plague - but sentient. And as the current thinking is starting to go towards that EVERYTHING has a form of "consciousness" (on a massive spectrum of complexity - humans are highly complex, an atom is very low complexity etc) that would actually make a lot of sense.

The Heat Death theory as Empty Night is interesting. I always interpreted Empty Night as dissolution of reality; non-existence (no stars, no matter, no energy, no time, no anything at all). Which again I think has been hinted at in the books. Mother Summer says that should the Outsiders get in everything stops, and Vadderung says something similar about the Sleepers being released. Also the fact that when the Mothers are discussing the new branches appearing, the idea that even the Destroyer (MW) would prefer bright futures to Empty Night suggests that even Death and Destruction would be irrelevant. In such an event - as Time would be rendered meaningless - it would be as though nothing had ever existed or would ever exist. Creation ending would be a pretty crazy event - scientifically speaking, let alone magically/spiritually.

Bad Alias is pretty right, not all possible realities yet exist, depending on how many choices are currently available to mortals. Even though Fae can't do such a thing perhaps (as their will is not entirely Free, like Angels - which Jim have said have a measure of Free Will, enough to rebel anyway) I wonder whether the River People and Big Foots/Yetis etc choices affect Creation in the same way as humans.

It's too confusing to explain in a direct fashion so, consider seven branches where the Red Cap exists.  He's needed to fight at the Gates.  How many Redcaps answer the call and show up at the Gate?  All seven?  If there is only one gate, that is the question you're left to answer. 

Jim has hinted at something like this with Toot Toot.  When he needs to know Russian, he knows Russian.

I think your premise might be false there...I think there is more than Outer Gate (bear in mind Harry just saw one Gate) and they are called the Outer Gates plural. So I think each parallel version of Winter/defenders of Gates exist in each reality separately. So if the Red Cap is to defend the Gate, he defends his Universes, not Spider Man's or an alternate Harry Dresden timeline. Think on the fact that Jim and several characters have reminded Harry that within the Contiuum of parallel Earth's/Universes that Spider-Man, Star Wars and Alternate Harry Dresden all exist within Jim's multiverse. Jim even once made a joke (with a wink) that who would write several novels in separate Universes and actually secretly have them all connected in the same Multiverse (btw this is not uncommon, many writers have done this, and this story smacks of when he talks of how he created the Dresden Files when he didn't realise how crazy it was to write a massive 20-something book series).

Where did you get that hint on Toot? Very interesting info there if true. I think we can safely assume the Adversary did not get every Aurora as there would be still an nemfected mantle in play. Aurora's human self (assuming she was a scion or mortal who received the mantle, and not like Toot or Leah and comes from the original stock) is not multiverse spanning. That is impossible by the nature of Free Will - you cannot create choice if you exist in all possible choices all at once. I agree that mostly your choices are made well before you choose them (the same discussion around consciousness also discussed how it is likely that most of our "thinking" is actually done like computers do - in back of house systems that are far faster and more efficient than our consciousness, and so our choices are made long before we realise even in the moment, let alone in advance. It is our illusion of being self aware that creates the problem here) which is our advantage over the humble atom or even a mouse - we can be aware of what we are thinking and doing and change. That in itself is very significant - and how you might "cross the road" as you put it.

And yes your post did make sense - I found it very intriguing.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2019, 12:51:56 PM »
Quote
Really curious about this - do you have know where the quotes are on Nevernever structure? If I understand you correctly (the Water is the NN, the Pipe is Outside? And what is the Reality/Universe in that example?
This is a steal from fluid dynamics.  The Never Never is water close to the inside surface of the pipe, the center of the pipe away from the wall is the multiverse  In the analogy the pipe would be the Gates. Creation is the pipe and the water.

The theory arises from there only being one Creation.  If Jim wants there to be more, well and good.  But if there is one Creation and the Outsiders are outside, then by implication, it should mean there is one set of Gates. YMMV

The idea of Toot Toot knowing Russian when he needs to know Russian arises, from his first meeting with Sanya, it also comes up again about knowing Winter Law.  He just knows.  This theory tells you how he knows, I think.
 
Jim also throws out a little tidbit in one book about women having multiple conversations at multiple levels versus men having just one.
 
Combine those two thoughts. The Gates and the Mothers acting as mediators who see and know all the possible alternate versions of the time line. 

So there is only one Harry at the Gate at the moment that he is there, and when back in the timelines, multiple versions, who each know only the version of the trip to the Gates relevant to their time line,  courtesy of the Mothers.  While the Mothers, and I think the Gate, know all versions, concurrently. And the same would hold true for Rashid.

Since Jim is the Creator he can call BS on this by fiat, but it's fun anyway.




Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2019, 07:56:10 PM »
I wasn't saying the Ladies would create a universe by making a choice, but that a mortal could make a choice to have not killed them (or the new Lady could have made a choice so that she wasn't chosen), so there would likely be different ladies in different universes. And if there were different Ladies, there could be different Queens. If different Queens, there could be different Mothers. Jim has said a Summer Mother has retired, but that Mother Winter is still the original. Because of that woj, I'm of the opinion that the Mothers don't span the multi-verse. I don't think it's enough to say you're wrong, and it's definitely not enough to say that Mother Winter doesn't span the multi-verse.

You're idea of only one set of Mothers isn't confusing (or I'm not smart enough to be confused by it  ;)). It's my understanding that's how Uriel works and probably all arch-angels and maybe all angels.

The exercise of free will is what causes the split according to Jim. One where the choice wasn't made, and one where it was. (I don't like this because it basically says the exercise of free will isn't because you still didn't make that choice, but you did. I think it is a bad mechanic if you're going to put free will into a story. I'd prefer a mechanic where choosing to exercise free will causes a not necessarily binary split, but none of those splits is "didn't choose, acted in accord with nature"). The thing about all other things being equal is that they wouldn't be. The butterfly effect is the name of a real meteorological theory. Subtle changes change complex systems in unexpected ways.

For the sake of clarity, I'd say that mortal decisions are predetermined, and mortal choices are not. Choices are rare; decisions are not. Choices are exercises of free will that cause reality to split.

I'd say Bigfeet have free will because they can take up a coin and allow the fallen to act in our world. The fallen require free will to do that, or so we are told. Anyone who can take up a coin has free will. That means Grey probably does. It is strongly implied that Thomas does in Ghost Story.

I think Toot has a limited set of intellectuses, intellecti? (Stupid correspondence course). Winter Law and languages where his folk are native to (which may be global). Learn it? You just know it, Harry.

I'm pretty sure that there is one set of Outer Gates per branching of creation because I'm pretty sure some branches have had their gates breached.

I think the Creator created a universe and human Choice created branches to that universe. I don't think the Creator directly created multiple universes that also have branches, but there isn't any reason this can't be the case.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2019, 01:16:13 AM »
Quote from: Bad Alias
I'm pretty sure that there is one set of Outer Gates per branching of creation because I'm pretty sure some branches have had their gates breached.
Who branched Creation?

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2019, 05:40:45 PM »
People who made a Choice. Like whatever Choice Harry made that branched off another universe back in Grave Peril that sets up Mirror Mirror. I was using branch the same as parallel dimension or universe n of the multi-verse.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Nemesis WAG
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2019, 06:36:43 PM »
I just wanted to be sure before I responded.  My personal take suggests that the multiverse exists within Creation but is not all of Creation.  So in my head the Never Never exists separately from the multiverse.