Author Topic: Ghost Story and Susan's Fate  (Read 430 times)

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Ghost Story and Susan's Fate
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2018, 03:49:52 PM »
Dresden may persecute himself for "murdering Susan Rodriquez" - but he didn't actually do that. If he had, the Bloodline Curse wouldn't have wiped out the Red Court. "Susan" was gone already when he killed the vampire she'd become.

If "Susan was already gone" were true, would a vampire really have laid down on the alter to willingly die as a weapon against all the other vampires? That was pretty clearly still Susan making the choice.

I doubt Uriel could or would have told Harry what happened to her afterward, though. Not being allowed to know for sure seems like another one of the Rules.

Offline Mira

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Re: Ghost Story and Susan's Fate
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2018, 12:16:06 PM »
If "Susan was already gone" were true, would a vampire really have laid down on the alter to willingly die as a weapon against all the other vampires? That was pretty clearly still Susan making the choice.

I doubt Uriel could or would have told Harry what happened to her afterward, though. Not being allowed to know for sure seems like another one of the Rules.

She did make a choice.  Remember?  So did Harry.  He knew full well or figured that when he
revealed Martin's treachery, she'd go postal and kill him..   It was still her choice to go postal knowing the consequences if she did kill.  When she laid herself down the change wasn't quite
complete, but was when Harry cut her throat.. If it hadn't been the reversal of the generation
spell wouldn't have worked.  So she wasn't human when she died, now an exception might have
been made for her.  It could be that she works for Uriel or something like that, but he wouldn't tell
Harry because there are other plans for him, plans that are beyond even Uriel's pay grade.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Ghost Story and Susan's Fate
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2018, 12:38:26 PM »
She did make a choice.  Remember?  So did Harry.  He knew full well or figured that when he
revealed Martin's treachery, she'd go postal and kill him..   It was still her choice to go postal knowing the consequences if she did kill.  When she laid herself down the change wasn't quite
complete, but was when Harry cut her throat.. If it hadn't been the reversal of the generation
spell wouldn't have worked.  So she wasn't human when she died, now an exception might have
been made for her.  It could be that she works for Uriel or something like that, but he wouldn't tell
Harry because there are other plans for him, plans that are beyond even Uriel's pay grade.
That is supposing the vampire looses the soul immediately after transformation but that does not have to be the case. It might take some time to loose it completely. (5 minutes would be enough :-) )
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Ghost Story and Susan's Fate
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2018, 01:09:21 PM »
If you believe in this type of thing then you might want to think that the totality of Susan's life will be what she is judged on, not the last moments.  And JB uses this over and over.  Where this not true then Thomas would be royally f**ked.  And it isn't Harrry's business.  He may well feel guilt over his own choices but can't assume agency for her.  She was her own person.
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He never asked what happened to Susan.
He may be of the mind that it is a little late for that particular question.  Your assumption is that it turned out well.  Would Harry really want to know if it hadn't.  His choice sealed Susan's fate.  For good or bad.  She will never have the opportunity to add or remove to the totality of her life.  All this assuming that the white god doesn't have a summer school with makeup dates for souls on the cusp.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Ghost Story and Susan's Fate
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2018, 03:25:22 PM »
That is supposing the vampire looses the soul immediately after transformation but that does not have to be the case. It might take some time to loose it completely. (5 minutes would be enough :-) )
The RPG is kind of instructive here. It has mechanics for a character going over the edge from playable PC (i.e., with enough Refresh to have free will) to unplayable (taking so many powers that you are over the refresh limit, such as in the case of turning to a Red Court vampire, or a Changeling Choosing his or her fae side).

Basically, the player can cash in their chips and take on all the applicable powers, and remain playable for the duration of whatever immediate task caused them to take on those powers. Afterward, they're rendered NPCs.

So at least as far as game mechanics are concerned and they're backed up by things like Susan and Meryl's final scenes someone who fully turns retains some control over themselves in the first few minutes post-transformation.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Ghost Story and Susan's Fate
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2018, 08:59:23 PM »
Quote
If you believe in this type of thing then you might want to think that the totality of Susan's life will be what she is judged on, not the last moments.

   Or following the example of the Thief on the Cross,  supposedly he was a bad man all of his
life and deserved to die.   He said as much to his fellow criminal who was on the other cross adding that Jesus was innocent unlike them and didn't deserve to die.. Jesus then told him he would join Him in Heaven...
So it is possible that Susan is being judged on her final moments..

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Ghost Story and Susan's Fate
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2018, 10:47:20 PM »
God has to look into hearts.  Anybody can ask for forgiveness, but not everybody deserves it.  If the thief was forgiven, it was because his repentance on the cross was real.  If Susan deserved redemption, god would know it.  And why Harry couldn't.  However JB's theology is a little warped so, kind of pseudo Christianity.  YMMV