Author Topic: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?  (Read 20026 times)

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2018, 01:05:20 AM »
Quote from: Carl
Yeah but i doubt you get lows of -5 most years either in the winter, and snow is that weird stuff that happens to other people.
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Offline Ananda

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2018, 01:37:43 AM »
We know from death masks that she didn't, Butters did the autopsy's. Harry got off because no one, not even butters could determine how most of the actual human remains died.
I thought these acts were supposed to leave some sort of stain on the perpetrator?  Couldn’t they just take a look at Dresden for such “stains”?  There were quite a few dead, so it wouldn’t have been too subtle. Molly used magic to try to help a baby and a couple of junkies and Dresden saw the darkness in her in his gaze thingie. Morgan was cray-cray in Storm Front, lusted for blood in later books, but where was he after this? Maybe on holiday in Ibiza?

Punishment aside, wasn’t killing all those people supposed to affect Dresden in some major way? The current books talk about Eb’s staff protecting him which leads to the conclusion that there’s something to protect against. So, what, if anything, happened to Dresden?

Offline Arjan

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2018, 04:40:06 AM »
I thought these acts were supposed to leave some sort of stain on the perpetrator?  Couldn’t they just take a look at Dresden for such “stains”?  There were quite a few dead, so it wouldn’t have been too subtle. Molly used magic to try to help a baby and a couple of junkies and Dresden saw the darkness in her in his gaze thingie. Morgan was cray-cray in Storm Front, lusted for blood in later books, but where was he after this? Maybe on holiday in Ibiza?

Punishment aside, wasn’t killing all those people supposed to affect Dresden in some major way? The current books talk about Eb’s staff protecting him which leads to the conclusion that there’s something to protect against. So, what, if anything, happened to Dresden?
No you can’t because those stains could have many causes not all caused by breaking the laws. They are also very subjective and you don’t want to execute someone just because is not Lilly white enough just because of a soul gaze, you need extra evidence especially if someone is already a group member.

That is why they wanted to invalidate his membership. You can do all kind of things with people who do not belong.

And Harry already had some stains from killing Justin. Just being stained is not breaking laws. The grey wardens are probably all a bit stained if you look at it from the perspective of someone whe kept his soul particularly clean.


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Offline Carl

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2018, 04:44:52 AM »
I was thinking of after the coroner stage. Although I suppose Bianca personally might have been dead before Butters was done with them.

The Red Court hierarchy would have had an incentive to claim the bodies and dispose of them before anyone could double-check Butters' work and notice that hey, he's got a point after all.

Yeah but thats the thing, no one else likely would notice. You don't think they got butters committed to a mental institution just on hearsay, likely one of the other coroners looked at it, came up with an explanation and then used that as expert testimony to get him committed. If the bodies had just vanished it's a safe bet butters would have noticed when he got back and mentioned somthing too. Remember the masquerade works because 99% of mortals are fully willing to disbelieve in the supernatural even when it walks right up and smacks them in the mouth hard enough to leave scars.
Possibly Ivy and Molly's biggest fan, i'm too chivalrous and kind for my own damm good. A bit like a certain Wizard we all know :).

Molly should get this shirt.

Offline Ananda

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2018, 03:03:27 AM »
No you can’t because those stains could have many causes not all caused by breaking the laws. They are also very subjective and you don’t want to execute someone just because is not Lilly white enough just because of a soul gaze, you need extra evidence especially if someone is already a group member.

That is why they wanted to invalidate his membership. You can do all kind of things with people who do not belong.

And Harry already had some stains from killing Justin. Just being stained is not breaking laws. The grey wardens are probably all a bit stained if you look at it from the perspective of someone whe kept his soul particularly clean.
While discussing this and some other stuff recently, it struck me that it’s  interesting how matter of factly many responses are when discussing things that aren’t actually in the books. I don’t necessarily mean this answer, but in general.

Re: invalidating his membership
That’s why I speculated that Rashid could have had returning Dresden to the fold by obligating him with payment as an ulterior motive. Essentially, to keep him from having “other” status and so being the object of fear because, as evinced by history, frightened people are scary.

Having said that, I do have the feeling that the Merlin doesn’t currently want Dresden dead, though that is subject to change! It’s my speculation that, st the moment, he finds him more useful alive than dead. They could have a whole bromance buddy cop adventure, the Merlin and Dresden. That could be fun.

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2018, 03:12:17 AM »
Punishment aside, wasn’t killing all those people supposed to affect Dresden in some major way? The current books talk about Eb’s staff protecting him which leads to the conclusion that there’s something to protect against. So, what, if anything, happened to Dresden?
Eh, now any significant lack of manifestation I chalk up to the dark magic cleansing foo dog.

Offline Carl

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2018, 04:18:18 AM »
For some reason missed these two posts until just now, you know because reasons.

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Oh i read it as (snarky), sympathy, i was just trying to snark back ;).


No you can’t because those stains could have many causes not all caused by breaking the laws. They are also very subjective and you don’t want to execute someone just because is not Lilly white enough just because of a soul gaze, you need extra evidence especially if someone is already a group member.

That is why they wanted to invalidate his membership. You can do all kind of things with people who do not belong.

And Harry already had some stains from killing Justin. Just being stained is not breaking laws. The grey wardens are probably all a bit stained if you look at it from the perspective of someone whe kept his soul particularly clean.

Not just that but look at Ebeneezer and Harry, they traded a soulgaze way back, yet him being the blackstaff came as a complete shock to Harry. As WoJ pointed out a soulgaze shows you the essential essence of a person, but not everything about him/her. In Molly's case she;s in her formative years with her magic having just appeared and with a limited set of life experiences acting on her. there's functionally less to her personality for the stain to hide behind. On top of all that Harry has a pre-existing stain from killing Justin and has been soulgazed by the majority of senior wizards allready. There's no way for them to tell what is from what source.
Possibly Ivy and Molly's biggest fan, i'm too chivalrous and kind for my own damm good. A bit like a certain Wizard we all know :).

Molly should get this shirt.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2018, 05:01:49 AM »
Harry was not soul gazed by a majority of wizards during his trial because that would have brought a level of knowledge and understanding on both sides that was clearly not there in Summer Knight.

A soul gaze stays with you so you don’t want to look at warlocks more than necessary, it can give you some ugly memories that never disappear.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2018, 12:01:36 PM »
Harry was not soul gazed by a majority of wizards during his trial because that would have brought a level of knowledge and understanding on both sides that was clearly not there in Summer Knight.

A soul gaze stays with you so you don’t want to look at warlocks more than necessary, it can give you some ugly memories that never disappear.

Yes to the second part, but the reason Harry wasn't soul gazed by the whole Council at his trial is the same reason Molly wasn't...  Protocol, the arresting warden does the soul gazing of the perp and testifies as to what he/she observed in that soul gaze.  Which, when you think about it opens another can of worms, interpretation is based on the mind and experience of the one doing the soul gazing.   

Offline Avernite

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2018, 06:03:23 PM »
Yes to the second part, but the reason Harry wasn't soul gazed by the whole Council at his trial is the same reason Molly wasn't...  Protocol, the arresting warden does the soul gazing of the perp and testifies as to what he/she observed in that soul gaze.  Which, when you think about it opens another can of worms, interpretation is based on the mind and experience of the one doing the soul gazing.
IIRC Carlos had to give a second opinion re:Molly, and I suppose that is supposed to catch any too-egregious interpretation effects. I imagine Harry, too, was soulgazed by two Wardens.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2018, 06:42:27 PM »
IIRC Carlos had to give a second opinion re:Molly, and I suppose that is supposed to catch any too-egregious interpretation effects. I imagine Harry, too, was soulgazed by two Wardens.
Why? It is ugly to soulgaze warlocks. You are going to see all kinds of uglyness you will never forget. Mostly you just don't do it and kill them when they try to run away. But sometimes they have a trial for political reasons, when the warlock knows somebody or the merlin needs it to prove a point. But even then one soul gaze is more than enough. Why should several wizards look in the same sewer? One is more than enough thank you.
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Offline Ananda

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2018, 10:19:11 PM »
Why should several wizards look in the same sewer? One is more than enough thank you.
An obvious reason is that someone can lie, be biased, or just be mistaken as a single source of judge and jury.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2018, 02:56:52 AM »
Eh, now any significant lack of manifestation I chalk up to the dark magic cleansing foo dog.

Mouse came into Harry's life around a year after he torched Bianca's place, though. If he was stained from burning a bunch of teenage vampire groupies who were unconscious but still alive, Morgan and the rest of the hardliners would have had plenty of time to notice it on him.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2018, 03:05:30 AM »
An obvious reason is that someone can lie, be biased, or just be mistaken as a single source of judge and jury.
You mean the accused has rights?. I don’t see any evidence for that. The Merlin fully expected Harry to have killed Molly in stead of calling Edinburgh and wasting everyone’s time.

Fair trial is not high on the list. If the accused usually does not get to say anything, has no formal defender, is blindfolded and can not understand what is going on because everything is said in a dead language you can not expect other considerations of fair trial to be high on the list.

And even Molly did not get a second soul gaze. Even when the Merlin did not trust Harry at all. The Merlin probably thought one soul gaze was already overkill. She was proven guilty, kill her and be done with it.
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Wizard Sibelis

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Re: Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2018, 04:34:20 AM »
Mouse came into Harry's life around a year after he torched Bianca's place, though. If he was stained from burning a bunch of teenage vampire groupies who were unconscious but still alive, Morgan and the rest of the hardliners would have had plenty of time to notice it on him.
Whose talking about any of that? I'm talking about Crazy Made Manifest. Screw the council.