WAG.... Murphy has moved on

[groinkick]

Also Uriel made it clear not to "play with the controls".  Michael of all people would die before defying TWG's will.  He loves Harry very much but he'd let himself, and Harry both die before violating Uriel's words.  He'd have used it only so he could walk.

[Quantus]

Also Uriel made it clear not to "play with the controls".  Michael of all people would die before defying TWG's will.  He loves Harry very much but he'd let himself, and Harry both die before violating Uriel's words.  He'd have used it only so he could walk.

Devil's Advocate Statement: Until his Family is Threatened, at which point his priorities can potentially shift (see Warrior for an example).   If things had gone differently at the end there, if he were somehow certain Harry would failed and Nic would murder his family, I dont know that he'd have been able to hold himself back. He trusted Harry to get there in time and save the day, but gun to their heads and I think you could make him desperate enough to make a mistake.

[groinkick]

Devil's Advocate Statement: Until his Family is Threatened, at which point his priorities can potentially shift (see Warrior for an example).   If things had gone differently at the end there, if he were somehow certain Harry would failed and Nic would murder his family, I dont know that he'd have been able to hold himself back. He trusted Harry to get there in time and save the day, but gun to their heads and I think you could make him desperate enough to make a mistake.

Maybe for his family.  However Uriel's Grace did not fall so he didn't play with it at all.

[Quantus]

Maybe for his family.  However Uriel's Grace did not fall so he didn't play with it at all.

Oh, agreed. I just meant that while he would certainly Die before he risked it he might not be willing to stand by and watch them die.  I think that is the only lever that might actually do it.

[groinkick]

Oh, agreed. I just meant that while he would certainly Die before he risked it he might not be willing to stand by and watch them die.  I think that is the only lever that might actually do it.

Yeah, the love of ones family can make you do big things.  That being said Michael's faith is so strong he might believe until his last breath that his family would be protected.  His faith is that strong.  I think it's more likely he'd go bad if he felt his family was let down, like the death of his child or something.

Perhaps that's how Nicodemus finally turned.  A man of absolute faith that lost it when something horrible happened.

[Mira]

Oh, agreed. I just meant that while he would certainly Die before he risked it he might not be willing to stand by and watch them die.  I think that is the only lever that might actually do it.

   I doubt that that would do it, Michael's faith is unshakable, he'd put his trust in the Almighty.  He'd believe if they were meant to die, it was God's will..  If they weren't, the Almighty would step in in some way to save them..   He might even believe when weighed against an archangel falling, the sacrifice of his family pales in the larger picture of things..  Michael doesn't think in the same way that you or I do, that is one reason why though he is left a cripple for the rest of his life, he is happy..

[Fcrate]

   I doubt that that would do it, Michael's faith is unshakable, he'd put his trust in the Almighty.  He'd believe if they were meant to die, it was God's will..  If they weren't, the Almighty would step in in some way to save them..   He might even believe when weighed against an archangel falling, the sacrifice of his family pales in the larger picture of things..  Michael doesn't think in the same way that you or I do, that is one reason why though he is left a cripple for the rest of his life, he is happy..

I agree. That's what true faith means. And even though a little cynical voice tell me that every one has their breaking point, I know that there are some people who's faith is staggering. I've seen it a few times in real life. It's not inconceivable that Michael is one of those.

[Wolfeyes]

I agree. That's what true faith means. And even though a little cynical voice tell me that every one has their breaking point, I know that there are some people who's faith is staggering. I've seen it a few times in real life. It's not inconceivable that Michael is one of those.

I think it's pretty clear even Michael does. Just look at how he nearly beat Father Douglas to death in "The Warrior" and only snapped out of it because of Harry. It's not hard to imagine Michael having another moment like that under extreme circumstances, faith or not. That's part of being human.

[Fcrate]

I think it's pretty clear even Michael does. Just look at how he nearly beat Father Douglas to death in "The Warrior" and only snapped out of it because of Harry. It's not hard to imagine Michael having another moment like that under extreme circumstances, faith or not. That's part of being human.

Wouldn't have been wrong to do it either.  Nothing wrong with an eye for an eye.

[Arjan]

Wouldn't have been wrong to do it either.  Nothing wrong with an eye for an eye.

If you do not have a proper justice system available. It is an improvement from let’s just kill and eat them I suppose.

[Fcrate]

A very nice justice system indeed. He never went to jail, the church took him to "take care of it's own". How's that any different?

[Arjan]

A very nice justice system indeed. He never went to jail, the church took him to "take care of it's own". How's that any different?

That is because the story runs on another moral view. one where mercy is more important than justice. The first is seen as an opportunity to save souls and the second is seen surrendering to lower emotions like revenge, hate and so on.

Not always very practical and maybe less gratifying for normal people but if you want to wield one of the swords you need to subscribe to it.

Of course if someone threatens to blow up your daughter the most practical solution is to kill him and torturing him first might be emotionally satisfying but it is not good for your soul and his soul wouldn't get a chance to improve.

Besides there is a justice system and kidnapping is certainly something to lock you up for but the church is well known for ignoring that and taking it in their own hands. I would say that is wrong but I am not a knight or an archangel either.

[Mira]

I think it's pretty clear even Michael does. Just look at how he nearly beat Father Douglas to death in "The Warrior" and only snapped out of it because of Harry. It's not hard to imagine Michael having another moment like that under extreme circumstances, faith or not. That's part of being human.

Yes, but that was his own soul at stake, not the fate of an archangel, who had lent him his Grace..  Notice he used a baseball bat, not a Holy Sword if I remember correctly.  At the end of Skin Game, Michael didn't use Uriel's Grace even though he knew that Nic and company were going after his family.   I guess one could argue that since he suddenly had trouble walking that the Grace had gone back to Uriel, but he fought like a mortal, so I doubt that it had. 

[Wolfeyes]

Yes, but that was his own soul at stake, not the fate of an archangel, who had lent him his Grace..  Notice he used a baseball bat, not a Holy Sword if I remember correctly.  At the end of Skin Game, Michael didn't use Uriel's Grace even though he knew that Nic and company were going after his family.   I guess one could argue that since he suddenly had trouble walking that the Grace had gone back to Uriel, but he fought like a mortal, so I doubt that it had. 

That's not the point of my argument: my point is everyone has a breaking point where even faith isn't enough. He didn't just let "faith" guide him in The Warrior and believe God will protect Alicia.

So I repeat, everyone has a breaking point, including Michael, where gosh they might make a mistake. I mean, Harry does. Repeatedly.

[Fcrate]

A man tries to kill my daughter better pray to God for mercy. I won't have any. I'll just kill him. If he succeeded however, that's where torture comes in.
Maybe that's just me, but I doubt anyone would do any less if their children were threatened, and they had the ability to do something about it.