Your guess at secret power/mantles of the Council

[Quantus]

You know one of my theories is the "Walking Stick" is actually He Who Walks Beside...  Harry said that it appeared alive, and the fact that it seems to consume negative energy, and killing is an inherit part of it's power increases that belief.

I used to think that too (Similar to that thing that time in Thomas Covenant), but this WOJ blew it out of the water for me:

2013 Wyrdcon Q&A
The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe.  But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.

[Kindler]

I think Changes would be the exception, seeing as he was the one that started the war they were trying to peacefully end.  That wouldn't be a good time to call him in for his first session.

Not that I'm saying it's likely or anything.  But I could see it being some obsolete rule that gets used in a desperate political situation.

Not sure Harry's Warden status was something that was really official until Cold Days; he didn't have any idea what it meant, and I don't know if the Merlin even knew about it. I think Eb and Listens-to-Wind sort of agreed to let Harry figure things out before outing him to the Senior Council—especially since Cristos joined them. He's certainly not someone they'd want to hand that kind of information to.

[Quantus]

Not sure Harry's Warden status was something that was really official until Cold Days; he didn't have any idea what it meant, and I don't know if the Merlin even knew about it.

 I think Eb and Listens-to-Wind sort of agreed to let Harry figure things out before outing him to the Senior Council—especially since Cristos joined them. He's certainly not someone they'd want to hand that kind of information to.

I dont think it matters, at least in the case of the Warden and likely the blackstaff.  Those mantles are not, apparently, granted by the Council itself but rather by outside (supernatural) forces and simply honored acknowledged by the Council.  The Council could not have taken the title/role of Warden from Harry regardless of if they wanted to, the affiliation seems mostly just historic at this point. 


To the OP: I believe the title of Ancient is a Council honorific given to the current Eldest Wizard.  While I do not really think this comes with a mantle or any other tangible magical benefit, the fact that Eldest is significant enough to warrant a Mantle in the fae races makes me think that Eldest Wizard* might well have developed it's own Mantle over the years. 

*Note that this would go to the eldest by subjective chronological experience, so folks that cheated via NN shenanigans like Rashid would not get to cut to the front of the line. 

[raidem]

It may also go to someone not already in higher office.  If say Langtry was Ancient Langtry, he wouldn't go by it as he is Merlin.  Someone less ranked, less aged than he may adopt the moniker.

[Quantus]

It may also go to someone not already in higher office.  If say Langtry was Ancient Langtry, he wouldn't go by it as he is Merlin.  Someone less ranked, less aged than he may adopt the moniker.

Nah, I think it would pretty much have to go tot the literal eldest, regardless of other rank.  Im assuming, for example, that being the Ancient does not guarantee you a seat on the SC, any more than being Blackstaff or Capt of the Warden's does.   

[raidem]

I was thinking through that too while writing.

[jonas]

I used to think that too (Similar to that thing that time in Thomas Covenant), but this WOJ blew it out of the water for me:

The thing about that woj though, is it's connected to said powers, it makes no mention if said powers are themselves sentient... Look at the wolf belts, they channel a spirit of rage, they are literally described as an insulation. Compare that to Macfinn who's manifestation lacks any insulation between the two, creating a... 4 dimensional being metaphorically speaking. I think He can tap those powers until there is no insulation(think here of the insulation of mantles from the conscious mind) between the two

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becoming hwwbh... as he did as soon as he found Harry outside of Justin's Aegis of protection/concealment. The Mock outrage at Harry's insult/assault by either of them... I think He was there to test and push Harry himself, as soon as he could find him. Note Lea did nothing to help for that part either, you'd think a fricken fairy of winter would react to seeing such a threat even without the Godmother status, yea know?

other stuff I've talked about before... the Farmer, the Scything motion of the cattle, ect.

[Quantus]

The thing about that woj though, is it's connected to said powers, it makes no mention if said powers are themselves sentient... Look at the wolf belts, they channel a spirit of rage, they are literally described as an insulation. Compare that to Macfinn who's manifestation lacks any insulation between the two, creating a... 4 dimensional being metaphorically speaking. I think He can tap those powers until there is no insulation(think here of the insulation of mantles from the conscious mind) between the two

(click to show/hide)

becoming hwwbh... as he did as soon as he found Harry outside of Justin's Aegis of protection/concealment. The Mock outrage at Harry's insult/assault by either of them... I think He was there to test and push Harry himself, as soon as he could find him. Note Lea did nothing to help for that part either, you'd think a fricken fairy of winter would react to seeing such a threat even without the Godmother status, yea know?

other stuff I've talked about before... the Farmer, the Scything motion of the cattle, ect.

Oh sure Im quite confident the Powers it is connected to is sentient (in general and especially since I think it's Mother Winter).  But Groinkick was theorizing that the staff itself was sentient and specifically was a Walker doing a really good Stick Impression. The WOJ /does/ specify that the object itself, the Blackstaff, is not itself sentient. Even the Gates are more sentient than that according to at least one WOJ. 

[jonas]

Oh sure Im quite confident the Powers it is connected to is sentient (in general and especially since I think it's Mother Winter).  But Groinkick was theorizing that the staff itself was sentient and specifically was a Walker doing a really good Stick Impression. The WOJ /does/ specify that the object itself, the Blackstaff, is not itself sentient. Even the Gates are more sentient than that according to at least one WOJ.

That's not you thinking it's connected to MW as her walking stick is it? Cause the thing is, it's still just a stick in her hands then and she's not missing anything. Except she's rather crippled and needed it to get around, giving it something unique over her own self as well. The cosmic power inherent in it seems to me to allow her to travel vs anything she's already capable of. Something in somewhat contradiction to how Eb utilizes it... Thoughts on that one?

[Quantus]

That's not you thinking it's connected to MW as her walking stick is it? Cause the thing is, it's still just a stick in her hands then and she's not missing anything. Except she's rather crippled and needed it to get around, giving it something unique over her own self as well. The cosmic power inherent in it seems to me to allow her to travel vs anything she's already capable of. Something in somewhat contradiction to how Eb utilizes it... Thoughts on that one?

My current working theory on the Blackstaff is that it is indeed Mother Winter's Walking Stick, and that it does constitute a noticeable chunk of her power being carved off for a specific purpose (not unlike the Knight Mantle itself).  Given how powerful she is, and the stated /fact/ that she actively wants it back, I think the only way she wouldnt already have it is if she were bound by some promise/bargain.  We know (per Bob) that each of the Three Queens has distinct uses for the Knight; who is himself the little ball of Mortal Free Will they keep around as a walking Loophole for various Cosmic limitations.  So, I think Mothers use is a rare one, but that on occasion she has need to Empower a /Mortal/ Champion (likely her Knight at the time) for some task or purpose that Requires a Free Will (which seems rather common at that tier of power).  I think that last time she did this, said champion pulled a Caesar and reinterpreted the wording of the deal such that s/he didnt have to give it back when Mother Winter expected them to. 


Fwiw, a big corollary theory to this is that I think that, since the whole Purpose of Winter is Anti-Outsider, and the Blackstaff protects it's user from the warping effect of Black Magic (that is entirely supernatural and distinct from the normal trauma of such acts), I think that some sort of supernatural corruption seeps in whenever a mortal Chooses to Use Magic to break the 7 most foundational pillars of the Universe (Life, Death, Time, Free Will, etc) they create a tiny crack in the Universe that allows just a little bit of Outsider get Inside (may or may not be distinct effect from Nemesis Infection that we've seen on the Fae)

[jonas]

That's not a bad representation of it I think.
Imo since black magic is not part of the natural order and usual source of magic it's in fact not represented Inside reality but sponsored from an idea formulated from the outside. Like the entropy curse that summons Hwwbh, it's associated and utilized through things fundamentally part of reality, but the power and entities it calls on are not(no longer? never pulled inside? Somehow kept separate even though they can manifest inside?) part of reality.
And I do think part of that source is Nemesis herself. The fae are all about being a fundamentally part of magic itself, if magic itself is the key... and Fae changing when they should not be able to is the effect, then i'd say the things that eventually replace warlocks are the same things trying to replace the fae.

As to the Stick, I agree. I've always read the scene were she proclaims "not my knight." to be a literal statement.
Imo the Knights come from part of the overall breaking down of a singular Grace into layered Mantles. The Knight's basically represent the good or bad lever of choice that angels actually possess. Though that might not be the best example. The WK seems to be Mab's mortal choice/spiritual connection. Where as WL has one inside being actively subsumed allowing her to make electives like trying to change the method of getting Sidhe soldiers. And for MW... idk, cause i'd say the with the Sitck she can Baba Yaga it up and go anywhere, eat anything. Though i'd still say it has an original identity attached to it, the Knight whom was Before.

..Which reminds me, Sentient is a bad word here cause most supernatural spirits can no longer be described that way though they can talk and interact like it. Forget sentience, does it have an identity?

[Quantus]

That's not a bad representation of it I think.
Imo since black magic is not part of the natural order and usual source of magic it's in fact not represented Inside reality but sponsored from an idea formulated from the outside. Like the entropy curse that summons Hwwbh, it's associated and utilized through things fundamentally part of reality, but the power and entities it calls on are not(no longer? never pulled inside? Somehow kept separate even though they can manifest inside?) part of reality.
And I do think part of that source is Nemesis herself. The fae are all about being a fundamentally part of magic itself, if magic itself is the key... and Fae changing when they should not be able to is the effect, then i'd say the things that eventually replace warlocks are the same things trying to replace the fae.

As to the Stick, I agree. I've always read the scene were she proclaims "not my knight." to be a literal statement.
Imo the Knights come from part of the overall breaking down of a singular Grace into layered Mantles. The Knight's basically represent the good or bad lever of choice that angels actually possess. Though that might not be the best example. The WK seems to be Mab's mortal choice/spiritual connection. Where as WL has one inside being actively subsumed allowing her to make electives like trying to change the method of getting Sidhe soldiers. And for MW... idk, cause i'd say the with the Sitck she can Baba Yaga it up and go anywhere, eat anything. Though i'd still say it has an original identity attached to it, the Knight whom was Before.

There's a WOJ that the Knight Mantles are more of a Created thing, something carved off the Immortal's mantle.  The WOJ in question confirmed that the Erlking could absolutely make a Knight if he wanted, though it would be significantly less powerful that the Winter Knight who has 3 queens contributing. 

..Which reminds me, Sentient is a bad word here cause most supernatural spirits can no longer be described that way though they can talk and interact like it. Forget sentience, does it have an identity?

It's not "Sentience" itself that derail's things in my experience, it's getting it confused with the DV's very specific definition of "Free Will".

I dont think it has Sentience in the sense of self-Identity or Awareness, using the following WOJ about the gates as a comparison; it appears to have less awareness than the Gates /might/ have (as described below) so I think it's a lot more fully inanimate.  That being said, Harry definitely got a weird vibe from it that time in Changes. 

2015 Grid Daily interview
The Gate seems like something that, if it didn’t start with a consciousness, would develop it over time.  Is that the case?
It probably is, but the consciousness of an inanimate object like that is mostly like that of a mountain.  “I AM HERE.”  And it’s just increasingly aware of its here-ness.  The Gate actually exists very differently than what Harry saw, but that’s how Harry has to interpret it because it’s far out in the Nevernever.  Your mind has to put things into terms it can understand or you go squirrely.  Harry’s got a very good mind for reducing things to simple ideas.  Which most of the Senior Council would say with a roll of their eyes.

[jonas]

Yes, EK could, because he never carved off that mortal choice, same as Odin I believe.(which Woj would more or less confirm) There are 4 mortal choices floating around Fairie. And specifically, the queens and ladies are only a part of the Mothers power, we know they spun off all the lesser mantles, including then, giving the Queen the ability to make the Knight. The '3 queens' don't contribute, The two graces in opposition(tell me creator and destroyer are not archangel material, if not more) are broke down to maintain balance between the two with plenty of insulation filler in between. So Knights are indeed a created thing, from a mantle, from a grace...
Although it seems to play into the whole fallen shadow/ earthly mirror thing as part of the reason Knight's exist too.

[Morenath]

Not true. He became blackstaff "in 1884-1885 somewhere in there" but was the Captain of the Wardens prior to that (during the events of Fistful of Warlocks)

Come on, pal.  Think...  he had to beat out Klaus at the start of Summer Knight.  Remember?  The Merlin had 3 plans and the first was replacing the guy from Archangel, Simon Petrovich.

[Quantus]

Come on, pal.  Think...  he had to beat out Klaus at the start of Summer Knight.  Remember?  The Merlin had 3 plans and the first was replacing the guy from Archangel, Simon Petrovich.

Wow, nice work necromancer 

I noted the mistake further down the thread, I had originally thought the claim was that McCoy was Blackstaff before joining the White Council as a whole, not just the SC. 

Eb was Blackstaff before he joined the Senior Council.

Not true. He became blackstaff "in 1884-1885 somewhere in there" but was the Captain of the Wardens prior to that (during the events of Fistful of Warlocks)

Yeah, but Captain of the Wardens is not a member of the Senior Council.

Sorry, my brain completely blanked over the word "Senior" this morning, thought they were saying he was Blackstaff before joining the Council (as a whole) in the first place.   There just wasnt enough blood in my Caffeine System....